The pain in Spain falls mainly every game

[Karhu]

Ok, lads, I need some help here.

I think we can generally agree that Spain is crucial to the Axis - the MPPs, the units, Gibraltar and taking out the Med.

The trouble is, with the way diplomacy is set up at the moment, against a human player you've got no chance of getting the Spanish onside. Turn 1, I cash in the rocket tech investment and invest 3 chits in Spanish diplomacy. By turn 2 I've got as much invested in sweetening up Franco as you can - and zilch. All too quickly Britain cancels out the chits. And then when Italy joins in - wow! Three chits at 3% each equals not enough to get close to bringing Spain in before Russia joins in to wipe it all out.

I've tried ignoring Spain to invest in Turkey instead. End result: Spain slips towards the Allies, Hungary, Rumania and Bulgaria abandon any ideas about joining the Axis as a bad job, Turkey never joins anyway as the Allies react as soon as they see what's happening, and the whole thing is shot again, only more quickly.

I don't want to invade Spain, as it's a pain in the butt ("No paseran!" and all that), I need the troops elsewhere, and the Yanks get the Pacific fleet anyway. In any case, I can't garrison the country properly even if I do conquer it.

Any suggestions would be gratefully received.

[JerseyJohn]

From an historical perspective I used to think there was a good chance that Franco would have joined the Axis under the proper circumstances. My impression was that Admiral Canaris talked him out of it.

Since then, however, I've shifted a little in the opposite direction. Spain had a lot to lose from joining the Axis unless Britain were removed as the major Atlantic naval power.

Franco didn't much care about grabbing Gibraltar, so his only motivation to enter the Axis was the fear of German invasion. Especially as his popularity among the masses was shaky and the country had just finished fighting a very bloody civil war.

In their conversations, Canaris assured Franco that Germany had already moved the bulk of its forces east, out of France, and was no longer in a position to invade Iberia. Hitler had just assumed Spain would join eagerly after the fall of France. Which is why he insisted on a land corredor connecting the Reich to the Spanish.

In game terms, I think the chance of Spain joining should greatly increase if there are a few German armies and an HQ within, say, four tiles of the Spanish border.

[Lars]

Originally posted by Karhu:

Any suggestions would be gratefully received.

Next time, spend all your mpp on units, let your opponent waste his on diplo.

Other than maybe 1 chit to keep Spain at 40% for the minors.

This of course will only work if you're playing the same guy or somebody you know is big into diplo.

[Liam]

As far as the original posting, Spain can be bought, if the UK counters, all the better for the Axis. It is an expensive counter for the UK, and they cannot defend both the Home Island and North Africa, so giving one is a requirement against a competent Axis Player.

It's hard to get Spain if all 5 chits of the UK are in, in time. Plus Italy gives a slight chance of Spain joining regardless. Though the UK is now a broke power, she will really have no other diplomatic options, at least in the early game.

As far as historically. Franco didn't seemed very interested in putting his lot in with Hitler. I mirror JJ's opinion here, more would needed to be done than simple things to convince Franco to join. A country also that had a long bitter civil war should have Partisans

[SeaMonkey]

A couple of chits early as the Germans can compel the UK to invest if you get success. Helps set up a Sealion if UK defends Egypt, dilutes their MPPs.

The early chits can also be an insurance policy for minors joining. If you get a big hit, you can follow up, but like Lars says, units are more important.

[ChrisND]

Question:

Why is the 40% of Spain required for Hungary, Romania, et al to join? Is this historical?

[Lars]

No. How would you ever quantify it?

Tis a game.

[ChrisND]

I think if that were removed, it would not be such a detriment for the Axis to ignore Spain.

[SeaMonkey]

Hey guys, I've had minors join, down at 26% for Axis.

In fact it just happened in one of my PBEMs as my UK opponent had obviously made more of an investment than I, or maybe he just has better diplomats.

[ October 10, 2006, 05:04 PM: Message edited by: SeaMonkey ]

[Guest Mike]

One of the main "problems" for Spain joining hte Axis was that it relied upon the USA for oil.

[SeaMonkey]

So maybe once the Axis, obtain Iraq/Iran the effective diplomatic pressure on Spain should increase (% chance) or script once they reach 50% effectiveness.

Maybe an additional boost if Axis liberate Caucasus oil icons and the 50% efficiency level is attained.

[well-dressed gentleman]

Start the game in 1936 with the Spanish Civil War.

Send aid from axis and USSR, international brigades from everyone else and the winner gets a better Spainish readiness. Just a thought.

[TaoJah]

Originally posted by Karhu:

I think we can generally agree that Spain is crucial to the Axis - the MPPs, the units, Gibraltar and taking out the Med.

I don't agree.

An alternative to taking Spain is to make the UK surrender by taking London, Manchester and Cairo.

That pays much, much more MPPs then Spain, you get Gibraltar, you get the Mediteranian AND it makes a D-Day alot more difficult for the US.

Forget Spain, go for the UK.

[Karhu]

Gentlemen,

thanks for the tips and comments.

I hesitate to do a Sealion these days as the pay-off seems so small, especially with a convoy going direct from the US to Russia as a result in 1.04. Still, maybe it's worth a try, especially combined with a move into Egypt.

I like the idea of a Spanish civil war prequel - any modders out there fancy giving it a go?

[TaoJah]

If you do a Sealion and the US starts to ship money toi USSR, you can safely lay your three Germans subs on the US-USSR convoy lane. The German fleet ahs nothing else to do anyway, so...

But the real reason to do a sealion is to make the UK surrender : if you don't invade Egypt, you don't need to do a Sealion.

What I do is this.

In the very first turn, I split my forces in two parts : the army force (three armies, two planes and a HQ) and the mixed force (one army, two tanks, two planes, a HQ).

The army force takes the Low countries, France and then does a Sealion.

The mixed forces take Poland and then goes to Egypt.

This knocks the UK out of the war around the summer of 1940, with you controlling the Atlantic with the German AND Italian fleet. With your 4 subs, you can reduce the US-USSR convoy to necxt to nothing.

This also makes a D-Day for the US very, very, very difficult. You got like 12 ships in the pacific, so the US will not be able to ship alot of US troops to Europe, if any at all.

So, your west flank is covered with your fleet. You can then use all your ground troops to invade Russia, without having to worry about a D-Day.

[Liam]

Have you ever actually encountered the Royal Navy doing this?

Originally posted by TaoJah:

If you do a Sealion and the US starts to ship money toi USSR, you can safely lay your three Germans subs on the US-USSR convoy lane. The German fleet ahs nothing else to do anyway, so...

But the real reason to do a sealion is to make the UK surrender : if you don't invade Egypt, you don't need to do a Sealion.

What I do is this.

In the very first turn, I split my forces in two parts : the army force (three armies, two planes and a HQ) and the mixed force (one army, two tanks, two planes, a HQ).

The army force takes the Low countries, France and then does a Sealion.

The mixed forces take Poland and then goes to Egypt.

This knocks the UK out of the war around the summer of 1940, with you controlling the Atlantic with the German AND Italian fleet. With your 4 subs, you can reduce the US-USSR convoy to necxt to nothing.

This also makes a D-Day for the US very, very, very difficult. You got like 12 ships in the pacific, so the US will not be able to ship alot of US troops to Europe, if any at all.

So, your west flank is covered with your fleet. You can then use all your ground troops to invade Russia, without having to worry about a D-Day.

[Karhu]

Originally posted by TaoJah:

In the very first turn, I split my forces in two parts : the army force (three armies, two planes and a HQ) and the mixed force (one army, two tanks, two planes, a HQ).

The army force takes the Low countries, France and then does a Sealion.

TaoJah,

Thanks for the tip. It looks an interesting way of doing it, but are three armies and two planes really enough to take out France against a human player without suffering heavy, expensive losses along the way?

[sabazius]

Karhu,

All of TaoJah's various strategies/advice are concerning beating up on the poor defenseless AI. I don't think he plays H2H.

[hellraiser]

Obviously Tao's tips are for playing the AI.

As of 1.04, the Sealion against a human player is a very risky endeavour. After the fall of France, most of the players keep a british corps in Brest and it will take several turns to get it - so SL should start from Kiel/LC area. Problem is, the RAF bomber can spot things around, RN can intervene because amphib range of germans is only 4 tiles, a RN BB will sit in the Chatham port to prevent for several turns the german troops from landing regular transports after the fall of London. And, OFC, allied players usually build several corps for island defence.

It may work if the allied player used too many troops in different areas of the map and you suspect the island defence to be thin. And always together with Egypt - the ideea is to knock off UK not just get the british isle.

Anyway, very unlikely to happen - I did it once in v 1.04 against a human opponent (indeed i planned this from turn 1, built even an extra para) who played a bit aggro in other parts of the map, so I suspected the island defence to be thin. Very unlikely I could repeat the SL - usually good players fall for a trick only once