Neutral USA?

[xwormwood]

I would like to hear some thoughts about what would be needed (in game terms) to push the USA into neutrality.

I think there are some loose ends regarding the US war readiness. Shouldn't there be some kind of "never cross this line until you really want to play your allied game without the USA"?

Whenever the USA changed sympathy toward the axis side (after several allied declarations of war against neutrals while the axis keeps quite "peaceful"), shouldn't be this something like an EARTHQUAKE in game terms?

Actual this afflects the time the WHEN the USA starts lend-lease towards the UK, but i think because of the strong US isolationism tendency it is not enough.

I think a reaction like "this settles it, play your colonial war without us!" should be following very soon after the sympathiy for the allied cause has vanished.

Any ideas, arguments, thoughts?

[Exel]

I tried once making the US pro-Axis thinking it would be interesting to see the US fight on the Axis side, but keeping it neutral would do as well. Pumped full diplo on both Germany and Italy into US and avoided any additional DoWs. I even took France through Maginot and never touched the Benelux. Kept my diplo efforts on US constantly at a maximum. I managed to keep them from joining the war until early 1943. But still they managed to invade France already in 1943, the same year they entered.

Granted I got unlucky with the dice, only having diplo effect 5 or so times and even at best the US remained something 20+% pro-Allied. But still it felt odd that such a delayed entry makes practically no difference to its capability to wage war.

I think I might try it again to see if I get consistent results.

[arado234]

The USA never really was totally neutral.Remember the 50 destroyers for bases in the s.pacific.They were sending britain rifles,fuel,protecting convoys,a USA scout plane helped track the bismark.Most of the US citizens were sympathetic to the british cause and had no problem helping britain with war materials.They were not so keen on sending troops.I think the game is setup pretty good as is when you consider the fact that when the americans do enter the war this game doesnt truley represnt thier massive industrial output( which keeps the game in balance).It would make the game quite complicated if you started adding more and more politics to it.One example:when germany attacked russia alot of the russian people wanted to join germany to fight stalin.It wouldnt be a very fun game for the allies if russia did join germany which was possible in real life.Maybe tweek americas readiness a little if the brits go to crazy.

[arado234]

The USA never really was totally neutral.Remember the 50 destroyers for bases in the s.pacific.They were sending britain rifles,fuel,protecting convoys,a USA scout plane helped track the bismark.Most of the US citizens were sympathetic to the british cause and had no problem helping britain with war materials.They were not so keen on sending troops.I think the game is setup pretty good as is when you consider the fact that when the americans do enter the war this game doesnt truley represnt thier massive industrial output( which keeps the game in balance).It would make the game quite complicated if you started adding more and more politics to it.One example:when germany attacked russia alot of the russian people wanted to join germany to fight stalin.It wouldnt be a very fun game for the allies if russia did join germany which was possible in real life.Maybe tweek americas readiness a little if the brits go to crazy.

[TaoJah]

Originally posted by arado234:

The USA never really was totally neutral.

The US was neutral when Germany invaded Poland.

The US was neutral when Germany invaded Denmark.

The US was neutral when Germany invaded Norway.

The US was neutral when Germany invaded Luxemburgh.

The US was neutral when Germany invaded Belgium.

The US was neutral when Germany invaded The Netherlands.

The US was neutral when Germany invaded France.

The US was neutral when Germany invaded Crete.

It was only in match 1941 that the US did anything serious : the Land-Lease act that gave 32billion of military equipment (no soldiers) to the UK and 18billion to 37 other countries.

They didn't commit any soldiers until Pearl Harbor was attacked.

Saying that the US was never truly neutral is untrue.

After the war, everyone denounced the evil Germans for what they did in their camps. But before that was a known fact, there were plenty of people that didn't mind a strong Germany to stand up against Russia and the British emire.

[Blashy]

But even before 41 they were building up their military capabilities, at a very slow pace which I find is well simulated in this game.

[Exel]

Originally posted by Blashy:

But even before 41 they were building up their military capabilities, at a very slow pace which I find is well simulated in this game.

But was that build-up directed against Germany, or more likely against Japan, or indeed against anyone?

[Canuck_TAR]

But would have the U.S. declared WAR on Germany after Pearl Harbour??

They didn't until Germany declared WAR on the U.S.A. first.

Pearl Harbour attacked Dec 7th '41

U.S.A. Declares War on Japan Dec 8th '41

Germany & Italy Declare war on U.S.A. Dec 11th '41

[ February 12, 2007, 08:55 AM: Message edited by: Canuck_TAR ]

[xwormwood]

Roosevelt won his reelection in 1940 with the promise to keep the USA out of the war.

wikipedia: <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Franklin_Deleno_Roosevelt" target="_blank">Third term, 1941-1945

In his campaign against Republican Wendell Willkie, Roosevelt stressed both his proven leadership experience and his intention to do everything possible to keep the United States out of war. </a>

In my opinion the USA should really going this "out ot the war" path if the allied player starts to many conflicts on his own while the axis isn't doing too much on the war path (= very few declarations of war).

[Lars]

Originally posted by TaoJah:

Saying that the US was never truly neutral is untrue.

The US was "officially" neutral. They never were "truly" neutral. There's a difference.

And you might want to read the German Declaration of War sometime. In part,

On September 11, 1941, the President of the United States publicly declared that he had ordered the American Navy and Air Force to shoot on sight at any German war vessel. In his speech of October 27, 1941, he once more expressly affirmed that this order was in force. Acting under this order, vessels of the American Navy, since early September 1941, have systematically attacked German naval forces. Thus, American destroyers, as for instance the Greer, the Kearney and the Reuben James, have opened fire on German sub-marines according to plan. The Secretary of the American Navy, Mr. Knox, himself confirmed that-American destroyers attacked German submarines.

Furthermore, the naval forces of the United States, under order of their Government and contrary to international law have treated and seized German merchant vessels on the high seas as enemy ships.

You might also want to read Hitler's Reichstag speech of December 11, 1941. Rather a laundry list of violations there.

Just to keep it to the naval side.

This he wishes to impress upon the American people by suddenly returning on the 3rd April to Washington with all speed on account of the alleged danger of the situation. In September 1940 he draws still nearer to the war. He turns over to the British Fleet 50 destroyers of the American Navy in return for which, to be sure, he takes over several British bases in North and South America.

From all these actions, it may be clearly seen how, with all his hatred for Socialist Germany, he forms the resolution of taking over, as safely and securely as possible, the British Empire in the moment of its downfall. Since England is no longer in the position to pay cash for all the American deliveries, he imposes the Lease-Lend Law on the American people. He thus receives powers to lend or lease support to countries, the defense of which may appear to him as vital in America's interests. Then in (indistinct) 1941, as Germany cannot be made to react to any of his gestures, he takes yet a further step. As far back as the 9th December 1939, American (?cruisers) in the security zone handed over the German ship Columbus to the British ships. In the circumstances she had to be sunk (note: i.e. scuttled). On the same day, U.S. forces co-operated to prevent the attempted escape of the German steamer Arauca. On the 27th January, 1940, the U.S. cruiser (named, but indistinct) in contravention of International Law advised enemy naval forces of the movements of the German steamers, Arauca, La Plata and Mangoni. On the 27th June, 1940, he ordered, in complete contravention of International Law, a restriction of the freedom of movements of foreign ships in U.S. harbors. In November, 1940, he ordered the German ships (?Reugeu), Niederwald and Rhein to be shadowed by American ships until these steamers were compelled to scuttle themselves so as not to fall into enemy hands. On 30th April, 1941, followed the opening up of the Red Sea to U.S. ships, so that they could carry supplies to the British armies in the Near East. Meanwhile, in March, all German ships were requisitioned by the American authorities. In the course of this German nationals were treated in a most inhuman manner, and in contravention of all notions of international law certain places of residence were assigned them, traveling restrictions imposed upon them, and so on. Two German officers who had escaped from Canadian captivity, were-again contrary to all the dictates of international law-handcuffed and handed over to the Canadian authorities. 24th March the same President who stands against every aggression, acclaimed Simovitch [Chief of Aviation, Yugoslavia] and his companions who (?gained their positions) by aggression and by removing the lawful government of the country. Roosevelt some months before sent Colonel Donavan, a completely unworthy creature, to the Balkans, to Sofia and Belgrade, to engineer a rising against Germany and Italy.

In April, he promised help to Yugoslavia and Greece under the Lend-Lease Act. At the end of April, this man recognized the Yugoslav and Greek émigré governments, and once more against international law, blocked the Yugoslav and Greek assets. From the middle of April onwards, American watch over the Western Atlantic by U.S.A. patrols was extended, and reports were made to the British. On the 26th April, Roosevelt transferred to the British 20 motor-torpedo-boats and at the same time, British warships were being repaired in U.S. ports. On 5th May, the illegal arming and repairing of Norwegian ships for England took place. On 4th June American troop transports arrived in Greenland, to build airdromes. On 9th June, came the first British report that, on Roosevelt's orders, a U.S. warship had attacked a German U-boat with depth charges near Greenland. On 4th June, German assets in the U.S.A. were illegally blocked. On the 7th June Roosevelt demanded under mendacious pretexts, that German consuls should be withdrawn and German consulates closed. He also demanded the closing of the German Press Agency, Trans ocean, the German Information Library and the German Reichs bank Central Office. On 6th and 7th July, Iceland, which is within the German fighting zone, was occupied by American Forces or the orders of Roosevelt. He intended, first of all, to force Germany to make war and to make the German U-boat warfare as ineffective as it was in 1915-16. At the same time, he promised American help to the Soviet Union. On 10th June, the Navy Minister, Knox, suddenly announced an American order to shoot at Axis warships. On 4th September, the U.S. destroyer Greer obeying orders, operated with British aircraft against German U-boats in the Atlantic. Five days later, a German U-boat noticed the U.S. destroyer acting as escort in a British convoy. On 11th September Roosevelt finally made a speech in which he confirmed and repeated his order to fire on all Axis ships. On 29th September, U.S. escort-vessels attacked a German U-boat with depth charges east of Greenland. On 7th October, the U.S. destroyer Kearney acting as an escort vessel for Britain, again attacked German U-boat with depth-charges. Finally, on 6th November U.S. forces illegally seized the German steamer, Odenwald, and took it to an American port where the crew were taken prisoner.

These are not the actions of a neutral.

The German declaration of war was justifiable. Wasn't smart, but it was justifiable.

[Lars]

btw, one of those sinkings. You might have seen it on Deep Sea Detectives.

http://uwex.us/msrhein.htm

And if you're ever in Florida, you can go fish it. Only ninety miles out from Sanibel.

[Lars]

Huh, only 74 miles from U-2513.

History is very odd sometimes.

[arado234]

TaoJah america was sending war material to the british in 1940.I dont call that neutral.Also reading what Lars says just confirms what i said.They werenot sending troops but war materials yes.

[Edwin P.]

I would like to see the USA have the Option to Embargo or Not Japan.

If USA Embargo's Japan

--- 80% Japan DOW USA

--- 20% Japan Submits to USA demands and USA War Readiness reduced by 100% to 0

If USA Decides Not to Embargo Japan

--- Early Siberian Transfer, USA War Readiness Reduced by 50%

[Desert Dave]

History is very odd sometimes.

Yep, especially when it issues

Out the mouth

Of the Nazis.

Well,

For that matter,

"War Propaganda"

Then, or, NOW,

Ain't exactly the whole truth

And - nothing but, eh?

JUST because something is WRITTEN down,

Doesn't mean it is

Exacto facto.

Does it?

And,

What you can

Every day mundane - see, witness,

Breathe in, ozmose,

Is, oh, probably?

A tiny FRACTION

Of all that is... actually "there."

So.

I wouldn't bet the Gigantic Corporate Farm

On anything - ANY Government

CLAIMS,

During... war.

Peaceful existence... maybe.

[Blashy]

Originally posted by Exel:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Blashy:

But even before 41 they were building up their military capabilities, at a very slow pace which I find is well simulated in this game.

But was that build-up directed against Germany, or more likely against Japan, or indeed against anyone? </font>

[Lars]

Originally posted by Desert Dave:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr /> History is very odd sometimes.

Yep, especially when it issues

Out the mouth

Of the Nazis.

Well,

For that matter,

"War Propaganda"

Then, or, NOW,

Ain't exactly the whole truth

And - nothing but, eh?

JUST because something is WRITTEN down,

Doesn't mean it is

Exacto facto.

Does it?

And,

What you can

Every day mundane - see, witness,

Breathe in, ozmose,

Is, oh, probably?

A tiny FRACTION

Of all that is... actually "there."

So.

I wouldn't bet the Gigantic Corporate Farm

On anything - ANY Government

CLAIMS,

During... war.

Peaceful existence... maybe. </font>

[arado234]

I read that lars,looks like the U.S.were quite active in breaking neutrality laws(for good reason).

[arado234]

Edwin P.if we get into weather or not america embargos japan(if they didnt)japan may possibly have been talked into attacking russia in the rear when germany attacked.I know japans intrests lied elsewere but who knows what course ww2 would have taken.I like the idea but it opens up maybe to many possibilties for this game to go.

[Lars]

Now there's an interesting idea.

Axis chits keep the Siberian Transfer out? Say US below a certain percentage when they're due they don't show?

Would be tough on the Axis. You'd have to budget for a early Barbarossa and the chits. Don't think it would throw the game balance too far out of whack. Could really come back to bite a guy in the butt actually. But just might be crazy enough to work.

[Guest Mike]

Japan had already given up on attacking Russia after 1939, and was in no position to change its mind - the time since then had been spent preparign for a Pacific War.

The Russians didn't know this of course, so it was "just" a matter of perception.

the idea of the US not embargoing Japan is right up there with the French being properly prepared for the war as "what if" material1

[Lars]

US embargo was not fore-ordained. Neither was Pearl Harbor on Dec 7. Kick it out to a later date.

It's called diplomacy for a reason ya know. Figure out the rational that you like, but a Japan not tied up against the US would have been a threat to the USSR, preventing those troop movements.

[Guest Mike]

Nothing is "foreordained" - the Maginot line is not foreordained, the French army being in a shamble is not fore ordained, the French and British ignoring Liddel-Hart is not fore-ordained.

So what?

they were facts of the time.

Wanting to do away with them is fantasy, and once you are in fantasy land anything goes.

[Lars]

Yep.

Which is why the game lets you change the script. This is a fantasy, bound loosely by the possible.

[Guest Mike]

Which is waht I said - the idea of having no embargho is right up there with the French being properly prepared for war!!

What's your problem with that? :confused: