Why the Allies won

[Desert Dave]

Retributar - apparently, more American than any Americans are, uh huh, of late:

What is going on now!,...is wrong!!!, a leader is responsible for his action's,...that's why i can NEVER support...the..."shut-up-and-support-our-leaders"...axiom. Leader's need to be held to account!,and their action's or lack of them, questioned!.

Very very very ODD to me that MOST

Of the upholders of good old fashioned

American Spirit

Aren't even - Americans! :confused:

From Canada,

From European Nations

Large and small - they come!

They speak out free! and clear!

Three cheers!

Well,

Not to be out-done,

I put aside H.D. Thoreau book,

And, enter on in, only

One

Humble, working-class Cat

Since age 16

It has been!

Imagine that!

That's... over 40 years Dudes!

Any-hoo,

About time to... throw! them Scoundrels

O-U-T

OUT!

As our U.S. Consititution promises

That we can,

Should it become prudent, necessary

O Yes!

Yeah, you bet it does.

The... Days of the Smiling Vile Tyrants

Are very near

O-V-E-R

OVER!

Yay Hooray I say it - out loud!

[... hey! is this "bashing?" Gee whiz,

I sure hope not, I wooden wanna

Be some sorta "degenerate radical"

Or somethin, O Lord on High - nix nix!]

'Course,

That means we gotta get,

Hmmmm,

At minimum,

57 % of the Vote,

'Cuz they gonna call out the Goon Squads

Once again, oh yea,

Make 'em poor folks stand

In the voting line

In the rain - 8, 9 hours, and then!

With that X-tremely Ugly grin they got

(... born with it? or, acquired? no matter)

They just... close the door.

OK.

Suck it up,

Get it done, I tell myself!

And so,

First I tried... a Novena.

To Saint Philomena.

Lit the candles,

Said the sing-song thing properly

As it's meant to go:

_______________________________________

"O faithful Virgin and glorious Martyr,

Whoso workest so many miracles

On behalf of the Poor

And the Sorrowing,

I beseech you... "

____________________________________

No go?

Not a problem, next, as is my wont,

I commenced - in a friendly sort of manner,

Asking for STRICT accounting

Of ALL!

This lying and cheating and applying

Of the crude-cowardly sledge-hammer

(... whereat, a deft, and adept touch

would've got it done, no muss, no harm,

thank you kindly, see you

down the glory road!)

But... well, we know how

That goes, eh?

Some votes count MORE than some others.

What is left to do, Dudes?

Pseudo AMERICAN Dudes?

OK, down the steps,

Across the dank expanse, there!

I pull the light cord.

It's dim and dusty and - doggone it!

I trip over an old rusting Sword,

Saint Michael the Archangel

Up and forgot it

Last visit?

And anyway, finally - yep!

Over in the corner of the basement,

There they are!

You should see them beauties!

It's like... Saint Vitus fire!

Left over from Chicago,

Left over from post mortem

Kent State,

The... barricades.

I look em over.

A little "wobblie" here and there, LOL!

Not a problem!

I got 3-penny nails all over the place,

In Mason Jars,

Falling from Mars and long dead stars,

Though, LOL, these ones were

Picked up,

Only recently, you see,

At a garage sale.

Yep,

It's like the Boy Scouts taught me.

Be... PREPARED! :cool:

[Yogi]

Group 1:

It's too big.

It's too powerful.

It's too rich.

It's too influential.

It's too global

It's too succesful

Group 2:

Jealousy

Hatred of any group 1 concept regardless of issue

Brainwashed (religiously or politically)

Inferiority complex

Instructions:

Desire to know reason why for most U.S. Bashing? Insert appropriate concept(s) from group one and add one or more personality traits from group two to understand reason.

[Iron Ranger]

they cheated

[Desert Dave]

Desire to know reason why for most U.S. Bashing? Insert appropriate concept(s) from group one and add one or more personality traits from group two to understand reason.

Why, my my, Yogi,

DISSENT is as "American"

As Apple Pie,

Did you not know that?

Bashing.

Who framed that debate?

Who inflamed that ordinary discourse?

Merely saying that someone is "bashing"

America,

JUST BECAUSE they have differences

Of opinion,

Let's say... in what direction

WE the people... should go next?

Whether that be in war, or peace,

Or social welfare or whatever,

Is... nothing more,

And nothing less than... a Con.

A "con game," you know,

Like when the Shill move the pea around

Beneath the shells?

Ask the Cat to guess where the pea went?

See what I mean?

Bashing?

LOLOLOLOL!!

I call it... a citizen's RIGHT

To... dissent.

Though,

Alas... these draconian laws

The Chicken-Hawks

And other Neo-Cowards are passing

Out there in Washington D.C, well,

It's gettin' close, brother.

You'll wonder where it went

When it's gone, I reckon?

Free-speaking Democracy, I mean.

WAKE UP!

As my old neighborhood bike-riding pal

Jim Morrison usta say,

It's getting' late in the Con game, brother.

[JerseyJohn]

Retributor & nOKnOK,

My thanks, I understand that whole mess a lot better now, seems to me that it's a policy of perpetual bankruptcy. So, in truth, the United States is not the richest nation in the world but very possibly the poorest. Any country that has a positive balance at all is richer than the United States, which is hopelessly in debt.

Tao-Jah,

I won't bother highlighting your name because you're a zero. You aren't proud enough of your own values, if any, to state what they are. All you can say is that you're one of the hundreds of millions who supposedly hate the United States. Hundreds of millions of fools, because while a person can hate something a country has done, can even hate it's leaders, only an f'n idiot can hate the country itself. Sounds like you're one of those crazed looking loonies they show who stands around chanting while burning an American flag. Meanwhile the people in all directions live in fly infested mud huts because people like you are too busy hating America to do anything real in life. You can't find answers when you don't know the questions, and you haven't got a clue.

As for how the Allies won WWII, credit goes more to this man than anyone else:

Dr Theodore Morell, the quack doctor who filled Adolf Hitler with so many drugs and fake medications, all working against each other, that by 1941 he was lucky to remember how to get out of bed in the morning.

Morell was such a notorious quack that those around him suspected he was an enemy agent. And, indeed, he was, whether by chance or by design.

It's thought that even Hitler realized this, but chose Morell over more competent physicians because he knew the quack would keep his secret secure, that the fuhrer, in addition to Parkinson's Disease and a host of other serious ailments, also had syphlis.

[jon_j_rambo]

Ah, they are just jealous because USA has had God's blessings, along with Israel.

[Minty]

Oh bejesus he's onto religion, just when I thought the topic was turning back to the War!

So in one word before this topic collapses under the weight of bigotry, nationalism and anti americanism. One word that explains why the Allies won. Mine is

Leadership

what's yours?

[JerseyJohn]

WALLABULLUH!!

That's the word, Minty. The Allies had the Great God Wallabulluh on their side. And, also, it had Theodore Morell on the other side.

[TaoJah]

Originally posted by Yogi:

Group 1:

It's too big.

It's too powerful.

It's too rich.

It's too influential.

It's too global

It's too succesful

You take away all the fun, this list is waaay too easy to laugh away !

Powerful ? You don't see the bodybags coming in every single day, do you ?

Rich ? You didn't read the latest budget, did you ?

Influential ? You never read foreign magazines, do you ?

Succesful ? You haven't visited New Orleans lately, have you ?

Too easy, pffft.

[sabazius]

TaoJah, I think what annoys some of these folks is that you're just aggressively repeating the same boring talking points over and over.

[Nerd King]

Alright, why hasn't this been moved to a political forum? Wasn't it made for this inflammatory bullsh*t? Where the hell are the admins keeping things on topic? No wonder the SC2 community is dead. We all bicker about stupid sh*t when we should be discussing the game.

[Retributar]

Nerd King!... yes!, from that point of view, you are 'correct!, however, like the Stock-Market which exibit's High's & Low's we in the discussion forum, can also exibit a momentary consolidation phase!.

It's called a 'Time-Out', for some 'R' & 'R'!. Discussing NOTHING BUT THE GAME and nothing else, becomes dreary & tiresome at best!. From time to time, as a community, we like to unwind a little-bit and get some other current concern's that pertain to us talked out a bit!,...as well as getting to know each other a little bit better!.

Never fear!!!, we will not stop discussing SC2, and as you have probably noticed, that for a moment in time, little else is concerning anyone who come's to the forum, but to come here and partake of this timely discussion!. It will soon pass and we will return to where we were before, so please, excercise a little patience and all will be well soon!.

[Minty]

I'm trying to get it back on topic although taking in certain pride as newbie poster to getting such a long running one past the censors and still going.

Why did allies win? All of you pick just one word to sum it up.

Mine was leadership

[Retributar]

I agree!... Minty!..., but also a sense of betrayal had been displayed to the Allied European power's, in that Germany Promised 'Peace in our time' [To Neville Chamberlin], then, almost immediately conducted itself in a contrary manner!.

Which in effect,...'Spat!' in the face of all those who wanted to trust in Germany's proported 'Civilized Attitude' regarding other Nation's!.

This Belt between the Beady Eye-Ball's and Beak i would think would have the effect of sounding the 'Alarm' to all the other nation's,...'That we now have a serious problem' in our sandbox, and that 'It Must Be Dealt With'!.

[JerseyJohn]

Okay, and my main reason the Allies won is still Theodore Morell being Hitler's personal physician. Everyone keeps talking about Hitler's crazy decisions -- well, ever wonder why they got crazier and crazier? And why they were all successful prior to the invasion of Poland, then good through the fall of France and increasingly irrational afterwards?

Read about what Hitler's personal physician served up to him and you'll see the connection.

Leadership? Morell's treatment of Hitler deprived Germany of it's leadership. As I said, a lot of the nazi heirarchy came to think Morell might actually have been an Allied agent.

[SeaMonkey]

How about "resources" or maybe, "resourceful"

[JerseyJohn]

If we're each offering a single idea, I take it that's resourcefulness as in an abundance of resources?

It's a weird premise because the war in Europe was more like three wars strung together than a single war.

Essentially I think Germany won the original war, the one that began over Poland. Hitler went on to become irrational during the interim war in which the UK stood alone, and proceeded to lose it by widening the conflict to include both the USSR and the USA.

[SeaMonkey]

Well yes and no, JJ. There was an abundance of resources on the Allied side, no doubt, eclipsing the Axis. Obviously, that is what wars are about, usually, but not always.

You do know how to have to use them things or they're really of know consequence...right?

And being resourceful also means being a good leader, able to adjust to the ever changing situations.

But it even gets down to the single person. Imagine....for example...a soldier thats been subjected to a rigid dictum, a society that does not promote "free thinking". He reacts with the discipline of conditioning.

Another, taught to rely on his ingenuity and innovative spirit may improvise when faced with imminent demise, he may be considered more "resourceful".

So it is one word...but ...it has a lot of depth.

[JerseyJohn]

True, SeaMonkey. And I agree, those resources wouldn't have meant much in other hands because they still needed to be utilized on a global basis.

Regarding the war, though, I think it has to be interpreted pretty much from the Axis point of view to make any sense.

Hitler started it, there's no doubt there. He came to feel that Britain and France, while capable of posturing, wouldn't actually committ themselves to another major European conflict. So he invaded Poland in the belief that it would produce another Munich Conference and, with the USSR invading from the east, the end result would be a neatly partitioned Poland with Europe at peace and Germany, greatly expanded during 1938 and 39, now sharing a long border with the USSR, able to bide it's time and prepare for the war he'd always wanted, in the East.

He was wrong, and wound up with a war in the west, one he didn't want. So his plans were adjusted, he'd snatch Denmark and Norway, take the low countries and deadlock Britain and France which, not having a blocade against him, would agree to peace before the end of 1940; he'd return the Low Countries and whatever he took in France and would keep the rest.

Again he was wrong, in part done in by his own unexpected succeess. France wasn't supposed to fall. When it did, and it happened so quickly, he was left with his earlier plans no longer making sense.

But even then he wanted to go back to the original idea of not having a war in the west and being able to conquer the USSR without worrying about a second front. That Britain didn't see his logic astounded him. He had no answer for this, it was obvious that he couldn't cross the Channel and obvious that he couldn't destroy Britain at sea. He never really understood the U-boat campaign.

So he floundered about, first trying to draw Spain into it so he could take Gibraltar, believing that, surely would knock the Brits out of it. Meanwhile he didn't recognize the importance of taking Gibraltar and even passed on it in order to take Crete -- which he saw as a bomber base within range of the Rumanian oil fields.

His decisions become incomprehensible during 1941. He tells his generals that he'll crush Russia in a few months and that will force the UK to agree to peace terms. Where's the connection? Nothing. A little while later he declares war on the United States for reasons nobody has since been able to figure out for sure -- was he trying to get Japan to go against the USSR? Not much point to that as they'd have already committed most of their effort against the U. S.. Was he frustrated because U S Navy ships were helping to escort supploy ships to the UK? A declaration of war on the U. S. freed his U-boats, true, but it also meant his unwanted second front would move from a sideshow to the main event.

At this point I believe Blashy is pretty much correct; once the USSR and US were fighting him at the same time Germany's war was lost.

But the thing is, Hitler's reasoning after the fall of France in mid-1940 is completely different from the reasoning that brought him up to that point.

And this is where his personal physician comes in. From the start of the war through the end of Hitler's life, Morell was steadily increasing the dosages and also steadily introducing narcotics. By early 1942 Hitler's decisions were ever more often hallucinatory and going back a year, to the entire year of 1941, his decisions were constantly suspect and obsessed with conquering the USSR despite the fact his position had radically changed along the way.

Leadership is the key to any war, especially so in this one. And Hitler's leadership goes from being extremely effective through the end of the French Campaign, to being purely irrational a few years later.

To me all else springs from that. Hitler was the only person who had the power to decide who'd even be fighting in the war! And, when the events rolled around, he consistently made the worst decisions imaginable. This isn't at all like the ruthless leader of the 1930s who'd seen so perfectly how to maneuver a defeated nation back into world power and possible European dominance, without having fired a single shot in warfare.

[SeaMonkey]

I can't disagree with this line of reasoning. JJ, you are right on and Blashy was right about this(America's apathy). I for one and there are not just a few others who will be awaiting with anxious anticipation for your book.

IMO you have the clarity of vision to make this "what if" work, with premise. We can debate it, but in the end, who can say it couldn't have happened, only a fool?

I am sure that Hitler's demise, one way or another, was in the cards for 45 or 46. And who could deny that with some better decision making and an earlier exit by Hitler things couldn't have wound up vastly different.

[TaoJah]

Originally posted by Minty:

Why did allies win? All of you pick just one word to sum it up.

One word ? Then I'd pick "Russia".

If I could say two words, I'd say "Pearl Harbor".

And if I had three, I'd say "Russia" and "Pearl Harbor"

Originally posted by sabazius:

TaoJah, I think what annoys some of these folks is that you're just aggressively repeating the same boring talking points over and over.

Boring ? Only for people that don't want to hear them and that keep on saying how great their country is, dismissing all criticism as "jealousy".

And I didn't even mentioned the latest ones !

[Ottosmops]

Originally posted by JerseyJohn:

... that the fuhrer, in addition to Parkinson's Disease and a host of other serious ailments, also had syphlis.

I didn't know this.

Is it somehow documented?

I can't imagine where Hitler could have been exposed to infection.

I always thought he transfused his sexual energy in his politics.

[Ottosmops]

b.t.w.

I think that most of the dissonances between the “America bashing” and the “America defending” people in this forum comes from imprecise language use.

If I disagree with a certain decision of a politician, I should say: “This is wrong, because of ...”.

I shouldn't say: “Mr. X is an idiot.”

An I should by no means say: “Country Y sucks.”

Unfortunately, humans have a tendency to oversimplify, to generalize and to use “strong words” instead of strong arguments.

In this respect, Mr. Rambo is certainly the master of us all.

[Ottosmops]

To answer (better: comment on) the question in the topic title in a provocative manner:

Did they?

Before one can answer 'why' the Allies won, one has do consider, what it means, 'to win a war'.

Should we consider a war between nations as a kind of game, where the game designer has set some victory conditions and if they are met, one side has won and gets a 1 in the table and the other side has lost and gets a 0 in the table?

What were the victory conditions in WW2?

The governments of Germany and Japan have capitulated.

Is this the only thing, that counts?

If one counts the losses of lives, the Allies had to mourn more victims, so have they lost?

The economical damage was worst in Russia, Germany and Japan, I'm not sure of the order.

A few years after the war, the two main Axis nations were economically more successful than some of the winners.

One can say, the Germans have lost morally because of the Holocaust.

Is this verdict right?

One can also say, that after the war they regretted more thoroughly their misconduct, while some of the Allies repressed theirs.

One could abolish the war/game analogy altogether and see nations as organisms.

Germany and Japan (and some other nations) fell ill to a malady named national socialism or fascism.

They succeeded in overcoming this illness with the help of the Allies.

Maybe they are now better protected against such an illness than those, who didn't had such troubles in the past?

Before someone starts accusing me of revisionism, please note the many question marks in this post.

[Yogi]

Originally posted by TaoJah:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Yogi:

Group 1:

It's too big.

It's too powerful.

It's too rich.

It's too influential.

It's too global

It's too succesful

You take away all the fun, this list is waaay too easy to laugh away !

Powerful ? You don't see the bodybags coming in every single day, do you ?

Rich ? You didn't read the latest budget, did you ?

Influential ? You never read foreign magazines, do you ?

Succesful ? You haven't visited New Orleans lately, have you ?

Too easy, pffft. </font>