SeaMonkey Posted November 17, 2004 Share Posted November 17, 2004 This may be a bit controversial, but I've got to throw it out there for the sake of realism. The topic is the way combat units accumulate experience in SC compared to reality. Obviously experience is accumulated through combat and to a lesser degree from training, but primarily from combat...do we all agree? I'm not concerned so much with the training issue, as that can be achieved somewhat through partisan combat. What seems unrealistic is that SC combat units obtain experience at the same rate depending on the success of combat. Success rewards I have no problem with, its the rate. Seems to me as a unit accumulates experience there should come a point, maybe after a couple of bars, a slow down in further accumulation should occur, ie. it is more difficult to come by. Green units should develop quickly to a certain point, but that experience rate of accumulation should perhaps take 2 or 3 more successful combats to get the next step of enhancement and by the time the 4th bar kicks in it should take even more. In this manner we won't have a bunch of fully experienced combat units running all over the map like in SC. Since Elite status, further strengthening will be tied to experience bars I believe this slow down will be even more appropriate for SC2. What's your opinion? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vveedd Posted November 17, 2004 Share Posted November 17, 2004 You are right but sometimes playability must be before realism to my humble opinion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
it's Les Posted November 17, 2004 Share Posted November 17, 2004 It's out of my skill area to know how that would be coded Sea Monkey, but I do agree with your post. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SeaMonkey Posted November 17, 2004 Author Share Posted November 17, 2004 Easy Les, multiplicative factor for determining experience after second bar is .75, after third .5, simple eh Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
J P Wagner Posted November 17, 2004 Share Posted November 17, 2004 In SC2 when you use regular replacements the units total experience drops but elite replacements allow experience to remain the same, similiar to Panzer General...I tend to think that in SC1, since unit rebuilds always resulted in a drop in experience, there was a fine balancing act performed between the rate of experience increases verses the inevitable decrease when replacements were introduced...if "elite" replacements do not adversely affect a units experience, then there could be an abundance of highly trained units on the map rather quickly in the game.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shaka of Carthage Posted November 18, 2004 Share Posted November 18, 2004 Currently we have four (4) experience bars. I have always considered them this way ... No bars ... Poorly or not trained. 1st bar ... Trained but inexperienced cadre. 2nd bar ... Trained with experienced cadre. 3rd bar ... Combat veterans 4th bar ... Elite Examples would be: No bars ... Russian units. 1st bar ... US Army units. 2nd bar ... Early war German units. As pointed out, once you start adding new replacements, your experience bars suffer. If you string out the replacements, one (1) point a turn, there is some lessning of the effect on the experience bars. Three (3) bar combat veterans gaining that fourth bar, should not be an easy thing to do. Especially since in real life, you don't see these "elite" units other than in small (battalion or less) sized units. I would agree, that the gaining of experience should be more difficult for this level. Its especially a problem in SC when you get "elite" Air or Naval units (but thats a different problem and approach). In SC2, there is talk about how "elite" replacements won't dilute the current experience bar. As these are not really "elite" replacements, rather "experienced" replacements (ie combat veterans returing from the hospital), I understand the logic behind not diluting the experience bars. I think a simple solution to potential problems this would cause, is simply to put a cap on the number of experience bars a unit can have once they receive replacements (experienced or not). A three (3) bar cap (ie combat veterans) would work for me. Btw, using the above combat experience model, is the only way I have been able to recreate Eastern Front combat in a model that I believe is abstract yet realistic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SeaMonkey Posted November 18, 2004 Author Share Posted November 18, 2004 Alright, I'm awaiting some dissention here, anyone? Perhaps the factors should be more extreme, say .5 and .25. especially in light of the "elite" reinforcement effect. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Liam Posted November 18, 2004 Share Posted November 18, 2004 what HC mentioned about reinforcing experienced units with experienced men frightens me a little. part of a game balancer is the cost.. HQs shouldn't lose it as easy but Troops on the frontline. This'll make life hard for some of us... whilst I suppose if all recieve the same 'capability' not awful. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pzgndr Posted November 18, 2004 Share Posted November 18, 2004 As these are not really "elite" replacements, rather "experienced" replacements It may be better to think of these as "trained" replacements. Better trained in the sense that they are higher quality, had more training resources at home, had more time to be integrated into their new units, or some combination of these things. experienced men frightens me a little. part of a game balancer is the cost.. The elite reinforcements will cost more. They're set at double normal reinforcement cost for now, but that may be too much. The deal is you pay extra but suffer no experience loss. If you're at 3 or 4 then that's a good deal; not so much if you're still at 1. Remember also that tech will now increase costs for units and reinforcements in SC2. So anything that further increases costs will have to be very carefully considered by players. Sure you could have that L5 L/R jet AF with 4 bars of experience, but you're going to pay through the nose to keep it that way. As for the regular experience gain/loss, there have been some possibilities considered to make this more realistic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lars Posted November 18, 2004 Share Posted November 18, 2004 Shouldn't there also be a point where "elite" replacements are no longer available? Or at least severely limited? I mean, let's face it, by 1944 or 45 everybody was pretty tapped out on the replacement scale. No matter how much training you give them, the ear & stomach battalion is still the ear & stomach battalion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MasterGoodale Posted November 18, 2004 Share Posted November 18, 2004 I totally agree with you SeaMonkey :mad: :mad: :mad: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MasterGoodale Posted November 18, 2004 Share Posted November 18, 2004 I'm curious as to how many of you play SC by email (and plan to buy and play SC2 by email). I'm thinking about buying it within the next couple of weeks and I would much rather play a human than the AI. I just want their to be a bounty of victims :mad: :mad: What is your overall opinion of this game? Is it good? is it fun? How long does a typical game last (how many hours of turns per player)? What are the graphics like when two units actually fight? (does it show anything besides the two units losing numbers?). Graphics aren't everything to me I'm just curious. Thanks :mad: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MasterGoodale Posted November 18, 2004 Share Posted November 18, 2004 Also, when is SC2 going to be released? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SeaMonkey Posted November 18, 2004 Author Share Posted November 18, 2004 Simmer MG, don't worry, get the game, the community will gladly victimize you, PBEM, TCIP, or otherwise, and you will like it. SC2 will be released when its ready, learn the ropes with SC1 and don't pick up the soap. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MasterGoodale Posted November 18, 2004 Share Posted November 18, 2004 You're gonna have TNT-Crispied Lips for that maggot!!!! :mad: :mad: :mad: You're my first victim!! GRAGRAGRAGRAGRGRA!!!! :mad: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Magpie Posted November 19, 2004 Share Posted November 19, 2004 I know this thread didn't start out about trashtalk; but hey Master G, can I suggest you take a bottle of valium or enroll into anger management classes. Lay off the emoticons, buy the game, and play the A.I. Then when you're up to the mark get onto curry's pbem list, there are plenty ready to teach you a lesson. :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sombra Posted November 19, 2004 Share Posted November 19, 2004 Master Goodale, always happy to teach a beginner basic manners. I prefer TCP/IP (faster play) For the advanced lessons please refer to the sospechos habituales: Terif, Drageonheart, Rambo, Liam, Avatar, Zap, FriendlyFire etc... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MasterGoodale Posted November 19, 2004 Share Posted November 19, 2004 pff! :mad: Nobody chucks flaming TNT like MasterGoodale - GrandMaster, Diamond Studded, Jewel-Encrusted TNT Chucker In Charge :mad: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SeaMonkey Posted November 19, 2004 Author Share Posted November 19, 2004 JourneymanBadbeer, Talk is cheap! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MasterGoodale Posted November 19, 2004 Share Posted November 19, 2004 lol! I mean Angry Out Loud!! :mad: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KDG Posted November 19, 2004 Share Posted November 19, 2004 Back on topic..... Easy Les, multiplicative factor for determining experience after second bar is .75, after third .5, simple eh I agree completely with the slowdown on experience gain. I'd initially make it .8 for the 2nd bar, .6 for third bar, and .4 for the 4th bar. Of course this could then be modified up or down with a patch if we notice too many or too few high level experienced units. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SeaMonkey Posted November 19, 2004 Author Share Posted November 19, 2004 Well Bill, How about some of those "possibilities", are we in the neighborhood with the factor slowdown. I'm inclined to KDG's suggestion, with a slight tweak .75, .5, .25. Of course we could consider some more complicated scenarios that are taken into account by CPU computations. How about an additional experience enhancement for engaging more experienced enemy units, ie. "Learn from thy Enemy". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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