Germany Industrial Tech is Nerfed!

[Liam]

Hubert, we want better industry for the Monster German Reich, that in WW2 never mobilized, but had it, then history may have been different. Industry tech doesn't properly simulate anything gained, at maxed levels, even if you're lucky enough to get to it level3 it's nowhere near what history would be.

It should represent the fact she can increase her production and industry together by 100% at least minimally to be a wortwhile pursuit. For teh USSR or USA its a backbone but for the Axis it's a waste of cash!!! Cheaper to invade another Minor

[targul]

The balance seems very good. This sort of increase would make the Axis too powerful I believe.

Jim

[hellraiser]

IT effect is limited to national resources only - i think it should stay that way, Axis is getting 70% of the real estate pretty fast and if you allow IT for conquered resources as well, you have to add to USSR_UK_USA alliance the Romulan Star Empire to balance things out

[arado234]

I think with germany part of the reason her ind.tech.doesnt have the same effect(im guessing)is hubert may have factored in sabotage in the defeated countries, unwillingness to work etc etc.

[Liam]

I don't see that, the average Germany starts at about 1 and qtr MPPs, hits about 200 in late '40 early in '41, then is about maximum in '42... Allies hit their Max around the same time!

IT and Production is usually not worth it unless it, and I do not think would change the outcome of a game if removed altogether! Has anyone who mentioned their name in the above topic ever really bought the tech for a serious game?

[Iron Ranger]

I have not run the numbers in a long time, but I would agree with Laim that IT is not worth it normally (as germany). Perhaps if you get it early (40), and only put in 1-2 chit will you get back your MPPs.. and not untill late in the game.

Production is another matter, its cheaper and in the long run can save you alot of MPPs as it applys to new unit tech as well as the unit its self. IE it make everything new 25% (L5) cheaper, thats alot of MPPs on a L5 Heavy Tank.

One of the 'lost' techs is infastructre, for USA and Germany this can save ALOT of MPPs. At a cost of 75MPPs with 15% savings per hit you will find moving those high tech air fleets around cheap. Note that at L5 INF you get 75% off on each strigic move. Suggest if you go this route do it early and throw alot of MPPs at it so you get the rewards quickly (Say 3-5 chits asap).

[Desert Dave]

Perhaps the GErman I.T. percentage

Needs be boosted a bit.

[... you can mod this, but I am

thinking... maybe for default '39

and appropriate scenarios]

Possibly... same for UK.

Thatta way, the investment would

Be well worth anybody's while.

[Blashy]

I found that when I used the following costs:

http://profile.imageshack.us/user/blashy/images/detail/#211/researchcostssc2tc9.jpg

It makes IT tech worthwhile for every country. Same goes for the other non popular techs as well.

[Blashy]

double post

[jon_j_rambo]

Why not triple everybody's income, then have a shootout of a game?

[foko]

There are two possiblities

1) make it historic than tech must be about ca 20 - 30% per stage + bonus for the east minors. I have no exact figures, but i know that only 30% of the german industry was "war industry" 1939 and the max output was 1944 under the full bombardment of the allied bombers, which could never really harm the military industial targetes, only the civil people. The gearms had enough manpower of the occoupied countries(KZ). The german economy was very effizent and manpower was never the problem, only oil was a nerve.

On the other side than 1945 when Japan surrenders and the full US power could go to Europa then they must be getting about ca 1000 mpps alone, whit 1000 of mustangs and P47 coming each month.

2)when you want it balanced then keep it as it is

bw

[Liam]

Blashy, interesting table. Certianly those techs were historically researched but since there are so few units to actually gain why would Italy or the UK every invest say in Tanks? Makes it a profitable idea to invest in everything perhaps when a unit might even get discarded late game..

I like some of the words on German production increases.. They had a great increase in German production and diversification throughout their constant issues, they even extracted oil from coal way ahead of us.

It does payoff certianly if you hit them early, as also mentioned but it's an ify thing.

typically now, The Axis overexpand and do not bother to ever go the route of IT or Production as they're "What Ifs" however conquoring is a For Sure thing.

USSR Goes IT and heavily on production along with the USA so they can produce a bunch of cannonfodder... Fact is you cannot really take the risk of 500 MPPs in tech early no matter if the payoff is big or not, especially since Germany is not a garaunteed payoff and cannot afford the gamble like the USSR or USA so it should be cheaper or bigger pay off.

[Blashy]

Liam, a level 5 UK tank at the cost of 125mpps is VERY powerful and well worth it, especially if you get a couple of hits early and you have a good tank in Egypt.

Or a level 5 Italian sub, repurchasing if it gets sunk is much more valuable knowing how powerful a L4-5 sub is.

Or being surprised by Axis HB is actually a strategy worth considering.

I have done every option possible with these tech prices and I felt almost all of them had a use in each country.

I had Germany and Italy at L4 IT and was getting close to 600mpps per turn. Without Vichy France - Algeria, Spain, Portugal, Greece, Sweden, Norway and Iran.

[Blashy]

Originally posted by foko:

There are two possiblities

1) make it historic than tech must be about ca 20 - 30% per stage + bonus for the east minors. I have no exact figures, but i know that only 30% of the german industry was "war industry" 1939 and the max output was 1944 under the full bombardment of the allied bombers, which could never really harm the military industial targetes, only the civil people. The gearms had enough manpower of the occoupied countries(KZ). The german economy was very effizent and manpower was never the problem, only oil was a nerve.

On the other side than 1945 when Japan surrenders and the full US power could go to Europa then they must be getting about ca 1000 mpps alone, whit 1000 of mustangs and P47 coming each month.

2)when you want it balanced then keep it as it is

bw

The default scenario is made to be 50-50 chance of winning on both sides. It is not made with Historical MPPs for Allies, this would definitely make it a game about Axis holding on to their homeland until say 30-Aug-1945 to achieve "victory" via armistice, peace treaty or whatever.

So the game is pretty balanced now, the only thing needed IMO is to make all research fields and units attractive/useful for every country.

[Liam]

Blashy, OUCH... 600 MPPs per turn... I imagine she would have had to do about 5 years of consolidation to get there.

Though when you say comperative techs, i.e. Jets, Heavy Bombers = Me262s, Migs, etc... B-29 Fortresses using near nuclear capabilitites then 5 IT should represent a MEGA effort by the nation to mobilize! so 600 MPP Double a basic IT is realistic... but would take awhile or a lot of resources! but once acquired OUCH

as for the upgrades in Armor, no way that British landed with the same armor as in 1940 and my British tank is discarded as is my Italian one pretty early. Historically and realistically it is making a unit obsolete that shouldn't be so your plan for a few techs would be very very valuable, though beware across the board as a lot of exploitation could occur, though I suppose counter-exploitation

also as for your comment about the fall of the Reich vs Russian and American production. The Figures I see are staggering, the Germans had a relatively tiny Manpower pool. In order to win a major victory was needed or a succession of to completely wipe out the East and West at some point or another totally hindering their efforts with morale. Though I'm not certian Russians needed morale they knew the lesser of the two evils... I can envision tens of millions of Americans, thousands of Ships...tens of thousands of airplanes in 1 battle vs a Tiny Germany, unable to ever match this...even tens of thousands of tanks!!! Allies had lotssssssssss of Oil, lots of Armor, rubber and men to sacrifice..... Germany died from '43 on because she was iceskating uphill

Originally posted by Blashy:

Liam, a level 5 UK tank at the cost of 125mpps is VERY powerful and well worth it, especially if you get a couple of hits early and you have a good tank in Egypt.

Or a level 5 Italian sub, repurchasing if it gets sunk is much more valuable knowing how powerful a L4-5 sub is.

Or being surprised by Axis HB is actually a strategy worth considering.

I have done every option possible with these tech prices and I felt almost all of them had a use in each country.

I had Germany and Italy at L4 IT and was getting close to 600mpps per turn. Without Vichy France - Algeria, Spain, Portugal, Greece, Sweden, Norway and Iran.

[Iron Ranger]

Has anyone broken down what each major power gets in return for each level of IT? Granted for say USSR this would be adjusted on what resources Germany had taken.

[Blashy]

I do not know what you mean by broken down but I feel this is what I did.

My take was if you only get 1 sub and the other guy can purchase 8, who is getting the most bang for the buck? Obviously the one who is paying 100 per level for 8 subs is getting allot more in return for the one paying the same price for one sub.

The same goes for every other unit. And by doing so it is making many units not appealing for individual countries.

So my goal was to make purchasing that ONE unit an interesting option considering investing in tech would be of "equal" level to the other countries.

With my chart this works out that way, which opens up the game to more variety and tactics from both sides.

The only thing to note is that sub costs is reduced to 100mpps, so 200mpps per level for Germany is not bad at all considering they can come out pretty fast due to lower cost... but so can the Allies with 3 total subs from the Western Allies.