Is BEF in France a Sound Strategy?

[Panzerkeil]

I'm wondering what you guys think about putting British units into France, such as the BEF? Is it worthwhile in a H2H game or do you just consider France a lost cause anyway and not worth the bother?

[Liam]

Don't bother!

Best thing you can do I find is near the offensive level of the campaign MAYBE hold it in reserves as an Amphibious to drop safey in the lines and hammer a Weakened Axis unit from Shore Bombardments and Suicidal Frogs ( Sees an Image of a bunch of Frogs with LaserBeams tied to their heading, jumping headlong into Formations of Panzers getting smooshed )

if not move her to egypt

[JerseyJohn]

In playing the AI I was surprised to see the BEF make a determined -- to the death -- defense of Brest after France surrenders.

Historically, the British pulled their remaining units out of France as that country was surrendering. I believe that was demanded by the French. Britain had no desire to push France into the Axis camp -- unlikely as that sounds, but the French definitely didn't want British units carrying on the fight on French soil after they'd signed a peace treaty.

-- In that context, British units in France when it collapses should probably vanish and reappear in the UK a turn later. I don't know if that's possible in the new system, but it's something for Hubert to consider for historical accuracy.

In the game, I don't think the AI use of the BEF at Brest makes much sense. Even if it stays to force the Germans to continue to the coast, I think it makes more sense to evacuate to the UK after surviving an initial assault.

[Timskorn]

I tried scripting them to leave, but the script won't work. Since I can't specify the exact unit to use, the AI will simply transport a unit from the UK and then drop it back off in the UK, instead of transporting the BEF in Brest. It simply looks for a unit to transport to a location and does it, picking any available.

[Liam]

BEF were needed at home. They do however with their AntiTank, Mobile and IWs hammer a decisive blow with Luck, possibly killing 1 German unit, possibly two in a bad France Campaign.

[Exel]

Originally posted by JerseyJohn:

Historically, the British pulled their remaining units out of France as that country was surrendering.

-- In that context, British units in France when it collapses should probably vanish and reappear in the UK a turn later. I don't know if that's possible in the new system, but it's something for Hubert to consider for historical accuracy.

Considering that units on Vichy soil will the relocated when France surrenders I don't think it would be too hard to do the same for the rest of France. Though it might be a good idea to limit the withdrawal so that if the unit is cut off or out of supply by Axis units then it can't escape.

[Fartknock3r]

To be honest, it's better to leave it at home, your going to need it. Seems a lot of axis players are starting to sealion-A LOT.

[Exel]

B.E.F. can be a valuable asset in France if used correctly. You can evacuate it before or after France surrenders, or if you lose it, rebuild it relatively cheaply in time to defend the Homeland for any eventual Sea Lion attempt.

[Fartknock3r]

Oh, haha i forgot about that. Thanks!

[JerseyJohn]

Good point, Exel. I agree. If a unit is cut off and out of supply it should just be considered destroyed.

But there's an interesting parellel from WWI. A group of Austro-Hungarian POWs in Czarist Russia were armed after the start of the Civil War and, known as The Czech Legion, fought their way at least a thousand miles west, toward the Balkans. Their approach to Tsarko-Sello (sp?) in the Urals was the specific reason for the execution of the Czar and his family.

[SeaMonkey]

Yeah, and with a little help from Woodrow Wilson(who tried against vast political discourse) and our Doeboys occupying Russia at the time, there may never have been a CCCP.

Now think of the millions of lives that would have saved, not to mention the the trillions of dollars.

Another great vision undermined by shortsightedness.

BEF...leave it at home, to easily caught(Germans will target it) and UK needs all its MPPs early. Besides, not like it will prevent France's fall.

[Exel]

Originally posted by SeaMonkey:

BEF...leave it at home, to easily caught(Germans will target it) and UK needs all its MPPs early. Besides, not like it will prevent France's fall.

But a delay of 1 or 2 turns in the surrender of France may be vital for your later success.

I agree though that sending BEF to France versus a human opponent is a bit of a gamble. But the cost of losing it wont be spectacular in any case.

[TaoJah]

Against the AI I move ALL British units to France : not only the units in the UK but also all units in Egypt (including the tank that arrives later) and even the unit in Gibraltar (I replace it with the Canadian worpse that arrives later).

I also save all the money in the first turns and buy an army with the UK with the .

With all those troops, I can put an entire second line behind the Franch line south of the Low countries, all in supply because of the African HQ.

This slows the Germans down ALOT. Sometimes he can't even take France in 1940 and Russia enters the war before he DOWs on it.

If you want to know what the Russians can do while all the Germans are still in France, this is a good strategy

Obviously only to be used against the AI, players would rip you apart !

[SeaMonkey]

Good point Exel, I don't play the AI anymore, too incompetent.

My comments are only directed at H vs H games.

I'm getting France to fall in February or latest April 40, so there is a quiet period that runs into the summer while Axis addresses different strategies.

One or two turn delays in France are inconsequential.

[hellraiser]

Originally posted by Exel:

Nope, a delay of 1-2 turns means not much. Marginal, only.

[Exel]

Originally posted by hellraiser:

Nope, a delay of 1-2 turns means not much. Marginal, only.

It can mean a lot in the Med theater. Germans get their forces into Africa 2 turns later, you have 2 more turns to prepare your defenses (reinforce, move in fleet, bomb Tobruk, etc.). If you don't take advantage of the 2 turns, then of course it will be only marginal.

[hellraiser]

Exel...2 or even 3 turns means nothing in the Med Of course, the mere ideea of delaying Axis is very good, but 2-3 turns it really means not much because there is a very good reason for Axis forces used to capture Egypt to remain there after Barbarossa -> Iraq and a possible hit on Turkey - Caucasus, so Axis will not use those troops in the opening phase of the russian campaign anyway. Axis will have enough units for Barbarossa if they did not forget to get some IT

[Hubert Cater]

Originally posted by Timskorn:

I tried scripting them to leave, but the script won't work. Since I can't specify the exact unit to use, the AI will simply transport a unit from the UK and then drop it back off in the UK, instead of transporting the BEF in Brest. It simply looks for a unit to transport to a location and does it, picking any available.

This has been tweaked for the first patch with some new modifiers (expanded STEAL flag) as well as the scripts to evacuate the BEF. Now they have a chance, if they make it to Brest to evacuate to England or head down to Egypt for variability. This will be a part of the first patch.

[JerseyJohn]

Sounds good, Hubert.

[Timskorn]

Awesome.

[David Chapuis]

In a game I am playing, I sent the BEF to France, and then tried to pull them back to a port and escape. Axis persued, and I had to operate the BEF to the French city on the med. France surrendered next turn and the BEF just disappeared!!!!! I cannot even buy them back at half price, and there supply was 7 when I operated them. Surely something is wrong with this.

[Cheese Panzer]

That's the Vichy Black Hole you've found there, Dave. Eats anything Allied that ends up in it while it just boots outs any Axis that are across the line when time runs out for France. Chalk it up to experience because the BEF ain't coming back.

[JerseyJohn]

Yes. Historically it makes sense. Vichy was an independent neutral nation, so it would have disarmed any foreign military or naval units within its borders. If the unit fought back it would have been an act of war, presumably.

Except, of course, Vichy didn't declare war on the UK despite its takeover of Syria, sinking of it's warships at Mirs el Kabir and its support of the Free French attack on Dakar. Which is why claims that Vichy was an unofficial extension of the Axis are largely unfounded.

I can understand the unit vanishing in Vichy. Perhaps there should be an Allied option to DoW on Vichy and not have the unit vanish. Though it seems doubtful that anyone would choose to go that route.

[Cheese Panzer]

I know the Germans invaded Vichy right after the Torch landings in November of 1942. Was there a declaration of war? Was there some other fancy name used to justify the invasion? I'm pretty sure there wasn't any fighting and the Germans disarmed the Vichy forces and confiscated their equipment. The Franch retaliated by scuttling what was left of thier Navy at Toulon.

[JerseyJohn]

I think the assumption was that the French would go willingly over to the Allies. They didn't. Also, I'm not sure how much contact was made before the actual landings, but probably not very much as the Americans wanted the whole thing to catch the Axis by surprise while Rommel was still at El Alamein.

In Morocco, the signal for the French going over to the Allies was supposed to be turning their spotlights on and pointing them skyward. Typically, some American planes flew over the city and the French did that anyway to defend against an attack. So, the Americans landed at dawn and were incensed when the French defenders fired at them. Well, they never agreed to comply, so there wasn't any act of treachery involved.

Before long it was all straightened out and the former Vichy French garrisons of Morocco, Algeria and Tunisia kicked in with the Allies. Which led to complications when Charles DeGuille threw a surprised at everyone and snubbed the former Vichy commanders. It took a long time to get all of the Free French -- former Vichy French relations straightened out. Along the way FDR came to loathe DeGaule and that led to long lasting problems throughout the fifties and sixties.

The French fleet at Toulon was skuttled to prevent it from falling into German, rather than Allied hands. Germany quietly invaded southern France after the North African commanders joined the Allies, and with that, Vichy ceased being an independent entity.