Sealion

Ottosmops · April 25, 2006

A few suggestions concerning amphibious landings.

What about an amphibious tech, which regulates the number of amphibious transports a nation can have at the same time?

Tech level 0 = 1 (or 2) amphibious transports are allowed.

Each new level increases the number by one.

If the axis player plans sea lion, he would have to decide in time and invest in this tech to reach at least level 2 or 3.

He would probably have to land his units in more than one turn, so the allied player would have time to react.

And what about a zone of control for naval transports?

Imagine, each warship blocks the way for enemy transports (amphibious and others) in its 8 adjacent tiles. (Either totally or by costing them additional action points)

This way the RN wouldn't have to block each tile along the British coast, but it could make a lose chain with its ships.

An perhaps the other side could negate this zoc-blockade, if one of its warships is nearby.

Sorry, if others have posted the same ideas before. I just can't remember everything I have read in this forum in the last weeks.

Jollyguy · April 25, 2006

Ottosmops;

IMO your ideas are spot on. Amphiious Tech would allow for more landings and reflects reality, as landing know-how and capabilies were rudimentary at the beginning of the war for all sides.

But your idea for naval zones of control for amphibious landings/transports is simply brilliant, and I hope it finds its way into a patch.

Bob

roman uk · April 25, 2006

good ideas.

Something has to be done, as IMO, the fact that RN and RAF are such a limitted factor in a sea lion operation is not believable. Understandably, the current setup is simple and makes for a liquid game.

Hitler and Raeder would have been overjoyed if they could land unlimitted divisions of wehrmacht with the Rhine barges available w/o the RN or RAF to send them to the bottom of the channel. Sea Lion should be exceptional, not an easy excersize for the german player.

option:

ZOC of Navy

Amphibious tech

SC1 delay before disembarking

If you could have SC1 type rules but then have units disembark without being blocked, e.g. land on the 'coast' (possibly adjoing sea hex/tile) and fight their way inland w/o possibity of simply being blocked seems to be ideal solution. Allows air nad navy interdiction while allowing marine assaults on defended isle. Would be an excellent solution for pacific scenario as well.

PeterX · April 25, 2006

Originally posted by roman uk:

Something has to be done, as IMO, the fact that RN and RAF are such a limitted factor in a sea lion operation is not believable. Understandably, the current setup is simple and makes for a liquid game.

Yes, the current system makes a mockery of the entire first half of the war; the RN should be a daunting presence. Without a reaction phase, Tdelayed unloading may be the best solution. It's still not complete satifactory because it's doubtful the transports would ever arrive at the English coast to begin with.

The liquidity problem, if it is a problem, hasn't received as much attention. I feel the game lacks smaller units. I loaded the 1942 scenario and the German is hard pressed to cover even the northern front let alone concentrate for the Southern offensive. It feels scattered.

The Player can purchase corps but I don't know if the cost/benefit ratio on a large scale is worth it. We need a sub-unit for amour units as well. Since SC doesn't employ dedicated supply units like WaW this offersa the added benefit of simulating supply build-ups in targeted zones.

There's much in SC2 that I prefer to WaW,; the larger scale and the ingenious expanding seasons. The squares are OK. But I appreciate the intra-turn reaction feature of the latter. Also the supply units contributed, IMO, to the realism, for one thing, making the Battle of the Atlantic less abstract. I've shelved SC2 for the time being.

Fartknock3r · April 25, 2006

Perhaps a solution could be when France falls UK can get two extra corps or one army and a pop-up comes up "UK prepares for a German Invasion."

But i think an extra Air fleet could also eb useful.

roman uk · April 25, 2006

The 'grand strategy scope' is my preferred game genre.

you can edit to make scenarios at the divisional or tactical level.

SC2 is very a very versatile engine IMO.

The amphibious landeing rule needs to be adapted. The idea of an amphibious landing coming to its coast hex, delayed a turn to allow Navy and air to exert influence (if not previously passified by invader) then disembarking at the same sea-coast hex, and fighting its way ashore seems a good solution.

Would take away blocking coast w/ a row of corps, and also allow storming of 1 hex islands (aka malta). This would increase adaptability of the engine.

jon_j_rambo · April 26, 2006

Have you clowns every been in a boat? It doesn't take that long to get out. One turn represents a week, this is not a real-time game. You sail over, land, and kick some butt.

If you're going to start this,"US landing forces need to wait a week to land, so Fritz can bring every ground, sea, & air to your location...

Then I say, I want the same when Fritz moves a Panzer in my face, I want to react like real time.

Give it up. Put corps & your ships on the land you want to protect.

Edwin P. · April 26, 2006

I agree with Rambo here,

In SC2 you have too few units to block the coast line. The problem in SC1 was that the opposing side always had a turn to operate units in to counter your invasion before the troops could unload. I much prefer the Sc2 system.

The only change I would consider is allowing air units to automatically attack amphibious transports that move adjacent to a costal tile a percentage of the time (say 20%). This percentage would increase by 15% with each advantage in Intel (35% +1, 50% +2), as you would have some indication of the enemy plans.

These air units could be intercepted and you would have to assign them the order to automatically intercept the landing craft.

i.e. Intercept Air (intercept air and bombers)

i.e. Intercept Land (intercept amphibious transports)

i.e. Intercept(intercept all)

[ April 25, 2006, 09:13 PM: Message edited by: Edwin P. ]

jon_j_rambo · April 26, 2006

The other option would be naval intercepts. Remember 3R the board game? They had that.

Fartknock3r · April 26, 2006

Originally posted by jon_j_rambo:
@SomeBunta --- You know what made us tick during WW-2? It was our will, not the dollar bill. The USA was broke in 1929 too, just like Germany. Difference is, we didn't blame other countries or certain groups of people for our bad economic situation. Rather than beat up little old ladies businesses, running tanks over farmers, and burning books...we worked & trusted. That's the problem, you only see our wealth, not our hearts. You like to bring the same accusation against the USA as was presented to a man named Job.

If you're reading this, thank a teacher. If you're reading this in English, thank the USA.

Shouldn't it be thank the UK for reading this in english?

Fartknock3r · April 26, 2006

Originally posted by jon_j_rambo:
@SomeBunta --- You know what made us tick during WW-2? It was our will, not the dollar bill. The USA was broke in 1929 too, just like Germany. Difference is, we didn't blame other countries or certain groups of people for our bad economic situation. Rather than beat up little old ladies businesses, running tanks over farmers, and burning books...we worked & trusted. That's the problem, you only see our wealth, not our hearts. You like to bring the same accusation against the USA as was presented to a man named Job.

If you're reading this, thank a teacher. If you're reading this in English, thank the USA.

Shouldn't it be thank the UK for reading this in english?

lol j/p

SeaMonkey · April 26, 2006

Why not use the surprise contact feature to simulate enemy intercepts of amphibious landings.

Even if previously spotted, each adjacent enemy air, naval, or land unit would inflict casualties on the amphib unit when it moves to land or even after it lands and moves adjacent to other enemy units.

Just like when there is a surprise encounter, even though this maybe is not a surprise, the adjacent enemy units will inflict random strength losses to the landing unit. The stronger, more numerous the units, the more strength loss.

This uses the existing game mechanics and pretty much simulates the adversity a landing unit would encounter when trying to get ashore.

hellraiser · April 26, 2006

"I loaded the 1942 scenario and the German is hard pressed to cover even the northern front let alone concentrate for the Southern offensive. It feels scattered."

Well, germans felt kinda scatterd in '42, that's for sure - too much real estate to cover

@Eddie - very good ideea with the % chance to intercept the boats - only applicable to transports/amphib transports. Thing is the german player may use a boat to force RAF intercept, provide cover with the LF and smack the RAF the next turn

But your ideea has indeed some potential and makes sense.

Cheese Panzer · April 26, 2006

Originally posted by jon_j_rambo:
Have you clowns every been in a boat? It doesn't take that long to get out. One turn represents a week, this is not a real-time game. You sail over, land, and kick some butt.

If you're going to start this,"US landing forces need to wait a week to land, so Fritz can bring every ground, sea, & air to your location...

Then I say, I want the same when Fritz moves a Panzer in my face, I want to react like real time.

Give it up. Put corps & your ships on the land you want to protect.

Tell that to the guys who stepped into the reef holes at Tarawa. Do you have any idea the kind of preparation and planning need to conduct amphibious warefare? The Allies, with all the advantages of production, air superiority, dedicated planning staffs, control of the seas, and plenty of troops, were only able to mount six major landings (of more than 1 division) in Europe during the entire war. Most of the early American landings in the Pacific were relatively small affairs, a divison or so, which wouldn't even show up in SC2.

Even Germany recognized that air superiority was crucial to making an opposed landing - the Battle of Britain wasn't just to reduce MPP's! And even then they had trouble finding enough ships to carry the waves across the Channel. Without air superiority the enemy navy can operate against landing ships - look what happened to the naval landings in Crete - wiped out before they ever got there.

Either shorten the range of amphibious assaults or allow ships to prevent invasions in adjacent squares. Having to stay exposed against enemy air and submarine attacks to try and prevent a landing is a better representation than an intercept option for ships which probably isn't going to happen.

hellraiser · April 26, 2006

say 'cheeeeese', Panzer

nice ideea, nice one but this way, kriegsmarine and LFs could wipe out half of the RN and instead of sealioning, establishing a 'fishing net' in the Atlantic to intercept US transports later in the war.

jon_j_rambo · April 26, 2006

@C-Panzer --- The Japs had troops on Tarawa, that's the idea.

Sombra · April 26, 2006

@ Cheese panzer : I like your ideas. Regarding the blocking : As hellraiser said the danger is that the royal navy would be a sitting duck if it is the only improvement regarding gameplay. Still I like the combination of your ideas.

Shorten the range and use naval units as blocker for landing crafts.

Cheese Panzer · April 26, 2006

Originally posted by jon_j_rambo:
@C-Panzer --- The Japs had troops on Tarawa, that's the idea.

Yeah, about 2500 and we threw an entire division + naval support against them. And damn near lost. And the Japanese navy and air force NEVER SHOWED UP. You can't amphib without control of the seas and at least some air supremacy - look at the Falkands. The basic rules of warfare still apply. In SC2 Germany can take the French plunder and put their ENTIRE ARMED FORCES on boats and drop them in England and the RN and the RAF can do nothing - in fact the RAF will die from ground combat before it ever gets a shot. All I hear you proposing the the smae "line the coast with corps" strategy that SC2 was supposed to fix.

Cheese Panzer · April 26, 2006

Originally posted by hellraiser:
say 'cheeeeese', Panzer
nice ideea, nice one but this way, kriegsmarine and LFs could wipe out half of the RN and instead of sealioning, establishing a 'fishing net' in the Atlantic to intercept US transports later in the war.

Yes, they can. All strategies have to have risks and payoffs. If you don't want to risk the RN guarding the beachses then you leave yourself open to Sealion. If you want to stop it be prepared for massive RN losses. Good games are about making interesting decisions.

jon_j_rambo · April 26, 2006

@CheeseBoy --- Son, play me a game, feel free to SeaLion me...I'll show you how a Champion plays.

Cheese Panzer · April 26, 2006

Originally posted by jon_j_rambo:
@CheeseBoy --- Son, play me a game, feel free to SeaLion me...I'll show you how a Champion plays.

I'm one of the 80% that plays the AI - specifically to avoid egomaniacal microencephalics like you. Thanks for the offer, but I'll pass.

Desert Dave · April 26, 2006

Yes, they can. All strategies have to have risks and payoffs. If you don't want to risk the RN guarding the beachses then you leave yourself open to Sealion. If you want to stop it be prepared for massive RN losses. Good games are about making interesting decisions.

Cheese Panzer,

[... somehow... those two words don't go together very aptly... "cognitive dissonance" I think they call it... JK! Is cool. ]

Very true.

What to do?

Just one game player's take:

1) You just GOTTA get that U-boot out there in Atlantic, using French and Canadian ASW, so to minimize RN losses.

2) You might blockade Kiel, and slim area between Norway and Denmark. Bismark doesn't arrive until August 24, 1940, so you should have time to set up tough defenses.

3) Assuming lower AP's for the amphibs (... which you could change in Editor, anyway, if need be) RN might elect to decimate the smaller sized Kriegsmarine first, meanwhile

4) Attacking ONLY those "valuable" amphibs, IE, HQ and Armor.

5) No harm in letting a few Corps land... which will serve you quite well, Diplomatically, with increases in war readiness for USA and USSR. Can be picked off at yer leisure, what with low supply. Adds experience to yer UK units which will later be sent to Egypt?

6) Also presuming that you as UK player have ENOUGH Corps (... if lucky, WITH I/W) purchased by now

(... you are up against some certain Foe who you suspect is actually gonna TRY this VERY risky invasion)

So to protect London AND Air Fleet and Bomber, placed precisely, so as not to be vulnerable on first turn of invasion.

7) Going back a bit; do you re-inforce France with BEF to DELAY the potential ETA of GErman amphibs, IE, France can hold out a turn or two longer, OR... keep yer only Army MAX entrenched in London?

Well,

Should be interesting to see how

The various Players elect to play out this

VERY challenging invasion scheme. :cool:

Cheese Panzer · April 26, 2006

Originally posted by Desert Dave:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr /> Yes, they can. All strategies have to have risks and payoffs. If you don't want to risk the RN guarding the beachses then you leave yourself open to Sealion. If you want to stop it be prepared for massive RN losses. Good games are about making interesting decisions.