CMBB and PC upgrade - views on spec pse?

[Apache]

Have put this in the tech forum too but it perhaps doesn't get visited by so many. Some are probably already using this stuff and have some views. I put a similar post in some time ago but decided to wait for release of CM2 and Medieval TW. I need to upgrade and while most of the stuff requires some thought there a five key areas that I would welcome views on. Esp stuff to avoid and what's recommended.

1) Sound card - am looking at the Audigy probably

2) Video - Considered Radeon 8500 (but I understand it will not do fog). Now looking at 64M GeoForce 3 or a 2GTS. Any probs with those?

3) RAM - at least 256, 512 if I can. Am a little unsure of the difference or any benefits of either RDRAM, DDR RAM or SDRAM?

4) OS - Windows. XP, Millenium, 2000 or 98? I have 98 on current system and it's OK but many printers etc don't seem to support it now. Doubtless I'd be able to persuade a manufacturer to stick on one of the latter versions of Windows more easily.

5) Athlon or P4?

Any potential clashes or comments on other bits greatfully accepted.

[WWB]

Originally posted by Apache:

Have put this in the tech forum too but it perhaps doesn't get visited by so many. Some are probably already using this stuff and have some views. I put a similar post in some time ago but decided to wait for release of CM2 and Medieval TW. I need to upgrade and while most of the stuff requires some thought there a five key areas that I would welcome views on. Esp stuff to avoid and what's recommended.

1) Sound card - am looking at the Audigy probably

2) Video - Considered Radeon 8500 (but I understand it will not do fog). Now looking at 64M GeoForce 3 or a 2GTS. Any probs with those?

3) RAM - at least 256, 512 if I can. Am a little unsure of the difference or any benefits of either RDRAM, DDR RAM or SDRAM?

4) OS - Windows. XP, Millenium, 2000 or 98? I have 98 on current system and it's OK but many printers etc don't seem to support it now. Doubtless I'd be able to persuade a manufacturer to stick on one of the latter versions of Windows more easily.

5) Athlon or P4?

Any potential clashes or comments on other bits greatfully accepted.

I actually just bought my new box, so I am more current than usual on the subject.

1) Sound: I would go with a Turtle Beach Santa Cruz. Avaliable for $70 or so and none of the nasty driver/mobo bus issues that SBs have with VIA motherboards. Which is a very important consideration should you choose an Athalon.

2) Video: GeForce2s are a dead line, they are not DirectX 8 cards. Which is actually starting to matter as people take advantage of pixel shaders. Best bang for the buck option as it stands now for a fully featured card are GeForce TI 4200s. $150 or so with 64mb VRAM. Raedons are nice, but they will not do fog in CM.

3) Do not get SDRAM, and get as much as you can afford. If you go with a high-end P4 then RDRAM might be worth it.

4) OS: 2000 Pro is the best of the bunch, but a bit pricey. If you do not need to hook up to a VPN or some other work-type things, than XP Home is a viable alternative. Installing 98 or ME is a waste of time IMHO.

5) The fastest P4s are clearly faster at this point. But to get one, paired with RDRAM will cost you alot more. Athalons provide alot more bang for the buck at this point in time. Stability-wise and reputations aside, both chips are now solid and mature.

WWB

[SuperHero]

1. dont really know about this one

2. I'd recommend GeForce 4 Ti4200, its cheap, still very powerful and its nvidia card so its supported by all games unlike radeon what you might find trouble with some games

3. id go with 512mb of DDR ram

4. 98 or ME, but as you said that you have problem with printers then id say ME, i have ME and its like 98 with alot newer drivers

i dont like XP because it has too much useless stuff in it and you cant choose what to install, there is only MAXIMUM install type, in ME you can choose what you need and install only those componets like in 98

5. id say athlon

[Clinton]

Just my thoughts,

1.) Audigy is good, though I like the cheap and very effective Sound Blaster Live.

2.) I have and LOVE my Geforce 4 Ti4600 though it is very expensive. I havent used a Radeon so I am a bit biased here.

3.) 512 Megs of DDRam (Double Density) should do you fine and not break your wallet. Other types of Ram has plusses and minuses others my tell you more about.

4.) Windows XP is by far the most stable when it comes to games and pretty much anything else. Go XP or don't go at all.

5.) Athlon Athlon Athlon! Cheaper and just as fast and many times faster. My AMD Athlon XP2000+ which clocks at 1.66ghz is just as fast if not faster than the more expensive 2ghz P4.

Just my opionins. I have,

Athlon 2000+

Asus A7V333 MotherBoard

Win XP

80Gig 7200RPM HD

SB Live

Geforce 4 Ti4600

and a 40/12/40 plextor Plexwriter burner

and love the system. Fast and reliable.

[Soddball]

I want to raise a paw for Win2k, and raise two fingers to WinXP - mostly because I don't like having Microsoft spying on me all the time. I got rid of WinXP and went back to 2K, because it's as efficient as XP without the patronising front-end. It's double the price of XP - primarily, I think, because you don't have to 'register' it compared to XP.

[Apache]

Thanks for replies - very useful. Have found this spec in an ad (Mesh PLC) that I am tempted with:

AMD Athlon XP2100

512M 266 Mhz HP PC2100 DDR

60G Ultrafast HD with 2Mb buffer

64M GeoForce Ti 4200

Windows XP Home (seems no choice)

16 x DVD

Sounblaster Audigy with Firewire port

Creative Labs Inspire 5300 5 point surround

17" Mitsubishi Diamond Pro Monitor

My only concern is with the Audigy, given the problem mentioned above with the VIA motherboards. The manufacturer cannot supply Santa Cruz option. Will this be much of a problem. From the comments above sounds like the rest is OK?

[ September 17, 2002, 12:18 PM: Message edited by: Apache ]

[WWB]

Looks like a fine machine overall.

The VIA issue is weird. Some people get it, some people dont and it has subsided somewhat recently. If they are builing these boxes, they probably have got it working. I choose to preempt the problem.

Regarding OS, most shops will upgrade or back-rev it if you talk to them. Did they happen to mention which Mobo?

For the record, specs on the PC I just picked up. Well, parts really:

Asus A7V8X Mobo

Athalon XP 2000+

512mb DDR

40 GB HDD

GeForce TI4400 w/ 128mb VRAM

Plus cannabalized DVD, CDRW

WWB

[LightningWar]

Go Geforce. I would suggest the Ti4200. Best bang for the buck IMO.

Athlon is by far the best bang for the buck.

I would suggest an XP2000 or 2100+.

My machine I built last January is.

ASUS A7V 266-E

Athlon XP 1700+

Geforce 3 TI200

256MB DDR-SDRAM

40GB 7200 RPM HD

It is a great gaming machine for me so far.

LW

[Redwolf]

My upgraded machine (very cheap overall, considering dollars/year I spent in the last years) feels very good for the CMBB demo and heavily modded CMBO.

1.3 Celeron upgrade in an Asus P2B (BX chipset)

ATI radeo 8500 LE 128 MB

256 MB ECC RAM

21 inch high-end hitachi monitor (worth more than the machine)

The machine does some real work besides playing wargames (but no other games), so I am entirely paranoid about getting the more reliable and most compatible hardware. I have seen so many issues with motherboard chipsets for AMD CPUs that I could never convince myself to buy an AMD machine. Heat is also an issue for my PCs and the intel CPUs, especially Celerons consume a lot less power, but also some (but not all) of the Pentium 3 and 4 line.

The graphics card here is by far the cheapest 128 MB card. It is discounted for the video RAM amount because of its lower clock speed. This is exactly what you need for a game like CM, you don't actually use the top speed of modern graphics cards, but the mods can eat up arbitrary amounts of RAM. I also do other non-game 3D work where I want maximum texture memory but don't really care about speed.

This stuff is dirt cheap if you always bought upgradeable stuff, and the money invested in the moitor was a very good idea. This combo does CM up to 1900 x something pixel. Most impressive.

(If you flame me with the usual stuff that this recommendations are crap because they don't get the best bang for the bug for playing Q3A or Unreal tournament, then well, feel flamed back)

[WWB]

Hehe. Wont flame ya on that Redwolf. I love the BX chipset, having been using it for the past 4 years or so. Solid as all can be.

But it is now a dead line for all intents and purposes. Getting one now makes no sense from an upgradabeability standpoint. The world has gone P4/K7 and DDR/Rambus and that chipset will not cut it for that.

Also, I would avoid Celerons (and Durons) unless you are really pressed for cash. They are hamstrung chips and cheap for good reason. Especially considering how cheap Athalons are now, there is no reason to stay with the budget line.

WWB

[Len]

Apache, that mesh PC sounds pretty good.

I run an ASUS a7V266 with 1.4 GHz Athlon, 512MB 2100 DDR memory, and it works just fine.

I have the SB Audigy Player card, and suffer SLIGHT crackling occasionally on some CM scenarios, but it's liveable.

My video card is a Creative something based on the Nvidia TNT M64 which is nothing special but works with no problems at all.

Oh, I run XP Pro, which I like a lot, although it was a bit of a hassle to setup originally, and get my legacy devices (printer, scanner) to work.

Regards, Len.

[Apache]

Looks like I'll go with the Mesh and risk the VIA issue (and some possibly some audio crackling). The mobo is Asus A7V333 with VIA KT333/Award chipset/bios.

I may push it to a 19" monitor or 17" TFT. Trouble is I think the TFT will push the price too high unless I go for a real cheap one and then you get the colour washing problems.

Thanks for help guys, much appreciated. Any views on the mobo still welcome.

[ September 18, 2002, 08:31 AM: Message edited by: Apache ]

[Fly Pusher]

Any of the currently shipping Mac's should be fine....

[WWB]

Originally posted by Apache:

Looks like I'll go with the Mesh and risk the VIA issue (and some possibly some audio crackling). The mobo is Asus A7V333 with VIA KT333/Award chipset/bios.

I may push it to a 19" monitor or 17" TFT. Trouble is I think the TFT will push the price too high unless I go for a real cheap one and then you get the colour washing problems.

Thanks for help guys, much appreciated. Any views on the mobo still welcome.

If you play any FPS type games, avoid the flat screen Refresh rate is 60hz max, giving one interesting effecs when you end up with 80+ FPS.

Actually, if you already own a monitor you are happy with, why buy a new one?

WWB

[Fetchez la Vache]

I'd say those specs look fine Apache. The XP2100 in particular gives a lot of 'bang for bucks' imo. A GF4Ti4200 is a good card, it can be over-clocked up to Ti4400 speeds easily and 64Mb is fine for current-generation games.

Only things I'd mention are:

1) I'm using the same mobo chipset/s-card combination (if my memory is correct) with no problems. I think (hope) the VIA-SB problems are generally sorted since I used to have problems before I upgraded my s-card.

2) If you don't want to play DVD's then personally I'd swap the DVD player for a CDRom. Cheaper.

3) If you know the machine's specs pretty well (ie HDD, mobo type etc) then it's always worth going to a local shop - one which builds computers. Give them the specs and get a quote? I think it's easier to deal with a local shop if you have problems compared with a mail-order company (although I think Mesh is one of the better ones). Maybe even buy the bits yourself and build it yourself? It's pretty easy really, it's only the software installation which I hate.

[Apache]

That's it then. Mesh it will be. I'll go for the 19" Digital I think, it does 1280-1024 (ish) at 85. Thanks for the comments. Knowing my luck I'll get the SB/VIA that hasn't been sorted. Mind you, as wwb said, both most of the big UK pc dealers are doing 1000's of Audigy/Athlon/Asus/VIA combos. I supect they'd have had a hammering and switched either cards or MBs if there were too many problems. Fingers crossed.

[Lindan]

best bang for buck:

athlon 1800+

ECS KS5 mainboard (Lan/sound onboard) (SIS735chipset)

ddr-ram (512mb)

geforce4 ti 4200

works for me...

[Redwolf]

Originally posted by wwb_99:

Hehe. Wont flame ya on that Redwolf. I love the BX chipset, having been using it for the past 4 years or so. Solid as all can be.

But it is now a dead line for all intents and purposes. Getting one now makes no sense from an upgradabeability standpoint. The world has gone P4/K7 and DDR/Rambus and that chipset will not cut it for that.

Also, I would avoid Celerons (and Durons) unless you are really pressed for cash. They are hamstrung chips and cheap for good reason. Especially considering how cheap Athalons are now, there is no reason to stay with the budget line.

WWB

Hm, I feel so misunderstood

I do not literally recommend buying a BX motherboard in the fall of 2002.

What I do recommend is buying a top vendor motherboard with whatever the currently top non-server intel chipset is, and then put in a pretty slow CPU for starters and whatever graphics card you can effort.

The point here is that ever since I observe you have trouble upgrading AMD systems with new graphics cards, with sound cards, USB and literally every other interface.

The range of available CPUs for a given AMD motherboard is always much less than for intel chipsets. I can put a 1.3 GHz CPU (not overclocked) into my 1998 board and I expect that the 2002 top-line intel board will at the end of its lifespam take a much faster CPU than a 2002 AMD board.

Note that all this is the fault of the motherboard chipsets and motherboard manufraturers, not of AMD CPUs. AMD CPUs in turn typically (not always) produce a lot more heat and AMD has a non-impressiove history of selling big charges of CPUs which did not work at all or not reliably.

No, if you buy a top intel motherboard with a slow intel CPU right now, you get the least bang for the bug right now. But the system is fine for CMBB and reliablity and upgradablity (especially the reliablity of an upgraded system) will be much better. If you insist of things like perfect IDE chipsets (with proper error handling and very reliable driver for many operating systems), ECC memory and similar reliablity issues you won't be disappointed either.

Man, I can't believe I go on a crusade about this. But fact is, there are many unreliable PCs out there and a lot of folks who buy a new card and can't run it, and it's not pretty.

[WWB]

Originally posted by redwolf:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by wwb_99:

Hehe. Wont flame ya on that Redwolf. I love the BX chipset, having been using it for the past 4 years or so. Solid as all can be.

But it is now a dead line for all intents and purposes. Getting one now makes no sense from an upgradabeability standpoint. The world has gone P4/K7 and DDR/Rambus and that chipset will not cut it for that.

Also, I would avoid Celerons (and Durons) unless you are really pressed for cash. They are hamstrung chips and cheap for good reason. Especially considering how cheap Athalons are now, there is no reason to stay with the budget line.

WWB

Hm, I feel so misunderstood

I do not literally recommend buying a BX motherboard in the fall of 2002.

What I do recommend is buying a top vendor motherboard with whatever the currently top non-server intel chipset is, and then put in a pretty slow CPU for starters and whatever graphics card you can effort.

The point here is that ever since I observe you have trouble upgrading AMD systems with new graphics cards, with sound cards, USB and literally every other interface.

The range of available CPUs for a given AMD motherboard is always much less than for intel chipsets. I can put a 1.3 GHz CPU (not overclocked) into my 1998 board and I expect that the 2002 top-line intel board will at the end of its lifespam take a much faster CPU than a 2002 AMD board.

Note that all this is the fault of the motherboard chipsets and motherboard manufraturers, not of AMD CPUs. AMD CPUs in turn typically (not always) produce a lot more heat and AMD has a non-impressiove history of selling big charges of CPUs which did not work at all or not reliably.

No, if you buy a top intel motherboard with a slow intel CPU right now, you get the least bang for the bug right now. But the system is fine for CMBB and reliablity and upgradablity (especially the reliablity of an upgraded system) will be much better. If you insist of things like perfect IDE chipsets (with proper error handling and very reliable driver for many operating systems), ECC memory and similar reliablity issues you won't be disappointed either.

Man, I can't believe I go on a crusade about this. But fact is, there are many unreliable PCs out there and a lot of folks who buy a new card and can't run it, and it's not pretty.</font>