Public Demand: Who wants to see Titans of TH, RD, BoB clashing?

[Treeburst155]

At this point, if we still have everyone onboard, I would like each player to come up with ALL the parameters for a single battle. This would include one of the widely known force purchase rulesets.

I think the best way to do this is for me to send out a form for all to fill out (a .txt file players can simply edit with their choices). I will then construct a battle with their chosen parameters,etc..

I will use the random map generator in the editor, and doctor the maps up a bit. Map size and setup zones will be duplicates of what the QB generator does for the same parameters and force size. In effect, I will be manually creating QBs for better maps, and the ability to purchase forces in the editor.

I will put together this "Battle Parameters Form" right now. I must think it through carefully. I will post the form here so you guys can point out any omissions or problems.

Players should keep in mind that one of the battles will be discarded at random (picked from a hat). Also, players will have no control over which side they play.

There will be three Allied attacks, three Allied defends, and one meeting engagement. Attacker/defender ratio 1.5:1

Flags will be QB default in number and value, but possibly re-situated.

Treeburst155 out.

[ June 11, 2002, 03:21 PM: Message edited by: Treeburst155 ]

[Treeburst155]

Here's the Battle Parameters Form I will be sending to you guys. Can you find any ambiguities or omissions?

_______________________________________________

BATTLE PARAMETERS FORM

Attack/defend or meeting?

Defender Force Points (if attack/defend):

Meeting Force Points (if meeting):

Max Force Points that can be edited out (dumping 2" mortars, etc.):

Map Dimensions, frontline: depth:

Setup Zones (as portion of map depth), defender: attacker:

Number and value of flags:

Flag placement (distance from defender's map edge):

Month:

Time Of Day:

Weather:

Ground Conditions:

Game Length:

Map Type (Farm, Rural, etc.):

Tree coverage:

Hilliness:

FORCE PURCHASE RULESET

Players may choose from any one of the "Balanced Force" Rulesets so nicely

presented at Rugged Defense. Go here:

http://www.rugged-defense.nl/cm/Fionn/FionnKellyBFRules.htm

Your choice:

Special Purchase Rules (no armed Sdkfz, no Volksgrenadier SMGs, etc.): Be specific!!

FORCE (Heer, Waffen SS, etc.) will be unrestricted, but can be addressed in your Special Purchase Rules (no mixing, Heer only, etc.).

FORCE known to enemy?

TYPE (Combined Arms, Mechanized, etc.) will be determined by you by filling in percentages of total force points below. These percentages are the MAXIMUM percentage of total force points that can be spent in a category. For "unrestricted" you would simply put 100% for all categories.

Infantry % :

Support % :

Armor % :

Artillery % :

Fortifications % :

Make sure your Special Rules and TYPE percentages are compatible with the Ruleset you choose. Be thoughtful in setting up "your" battle. Balance is important.

[ June 13, 2002, 01:09 PM: Message edited by: Treeburst155 ]

[Treeburst155]

The eighth battle will not be thrown out!! It will be used for the mirrored playoff between the top two.

Treeburst155 out.

[jwxspoon]

I can see the wine for us ROW designers going down the drain.

jw

[Fionn]

Mike,

Why not an unlimited option? I dislike CM's inbuilt purchase limits since I figure that so long as the various weapons systems are balanced off against eachother it shouldn't matter whether I get 20% arty or 30% arty so long as I know how to use it.

So, I'd like an Unlimited setting also instead of the COmbined Arms, Mech etc etc... Otherwise the game just degenerates into a "Well, in a 1500 point game he has enough points to buy 1 Panther and a Hetzer. I've killed 1 Panther therefore he MUST have 1 Hetzer left." Strikes me as kinda unrealistic. Therefore I prfer unlimited purchases.

If someone goes mad and buys 60% tanks they'll lose (since unbalanced forces generally do poorly) but it does prevent the number-crunchers from winning out (IMO)

[Redwolf]

I had several games with no limits for armor and vehicles, otherwise combined arms.

Worked pretty well, I think noone here will voluntarily overuse vehicles/tanks, and it prevents counting tanks and it doesn't cause you to sit there with 80 armor points left when you need 83 for the Hetzer.

[Combat Opinion Staff]

I dunno if I want to play under unrestricted. Do I need to explain?

[Treeburst155]

Well, you guys found an ambiguity.

I should have made clear that the TYPE (combined arms, mechanized) percentages can be anything you want. They don't have to equal 100% combined. I should have said "maximum percentage of force points allowed". You could set all of these to 100%, meaning 100% of force points could be spent in any single category. (unlimited)

Picture the columns in the force purchase screen. I'm just allowing you to set your own upper limit in every category as a percentage of total force points. If you want unlimited, then choose 100% for all categories. If you would rather set some limits for "your" scenario, you have that option.

These limits will have to be set by us since these are not really QBs. The TYPE parameter means nothing because it is not in effect in the editor. You have the opportunity here to customize your own TYPE of forces for "your" scenario.

EDIT: I've edited the Battle Parameters Form above to make things more clear.

Treeburst155 out.

[ June 11, 2002, 10:44 PM: Message edited by: Treeburst155 ]

[Combat Opinion Staff]

Treeburst, fair enough. Let us determine if our battle is an attack/defend or meeting engagement? Thank you for your dedication.

Swamp

[Treeburst155]

Swamp,

I see no reason why players could not make the choice between attack/defend or meeting engagement for "their" scenario ,other than we won't necessarily get 3 German attack, 3 Allied attack, and 1 meeting.

Since sides will be uneven, attack/defend duties will probably be uneven anyway. A player could end up with three Allied defenses, and three German defenses anyway. I see no problem with allowing players to do this. Any objections?

Treeburst155 out.

[skelley]

"Why not an unlimited option? I dislike CM's inbuilt purchase limits since I figure that so long as the various weapons systems are balanced off against eachother it shouldn't matter whether I get 20% arty or 30% arty so long as I know how to use it."

I figure that if this is the clash of the titans that everybody in it knows how to use arty.

The way I see the balance of the game is as follows: germans have much better and much more infantry and better armor while allies have more better and quicker arty. To allow germans to have more arty throws the game off balance.

While I agree that there can be tank counting, I really don't think this matters if you know how to use infantry. Infantry always wins battles unless it is a wide open field.

If someone goes mad and buys 60% tanks they'll lose (since unbalanced forces generally do poorly) but it does prevent the number-crunchers from winning out (IMO)

agreed but I do not think the unlimited pts will be used to purchase tanks. It will be used to purchase arty.

I know I have no say in this tourney but I had to throw my 2 cents in:)

BTW, the next clash of the Titans I should be in.

[MajorTaktik]

I like the unrestricted "type" for force purchase, but I have said before, the exception should be a definate restriction on caliber and amount of arty.

And watch what you guys say about tanks.

Craig

[FFE]

You folks considered using the end game randomizer? Might prove interesting if the battles are going to be conducted PBEM.

Just a thought

[Treeburst155]

Players can do a great deal of force manipulation by assigning maximum percentages to the various unit categories. Arty can be limited in this way by the players in "their" scenario.

If a player goes with 100% in the arty category then there very well could be an arty duel. The important thing is that both players are held to the same maximum percentages.

I think it's all very fair having each player "design" one scenario. Especially when the players don't know which side they will end up playing.

I realize in regular QBs the amount of points allowed per category is different for each side, but, I don't think it's that impportant. Am I wrong? The German player may be able to spend as much on arty as the Allied player, but he still can't make the rounds come down any sooner.

It would probably be impossible to get all eight players to agree on one set of parameters and rules. By having each player "design" a battle the way he wants, all players are equally dissatified with six of the seven battles.

Fairness above all in this tourney, I think.

Treeburst155 out.

[Deathdealer]

Everything else is fine but

a) no flaktrucks

guns should have towing vehicle in MEs and in attacks

c) definitely I want some arty limit - Scipios artillery rules are something I ALWAYS use and that's a fact ... to me artillery duels prove nothing of players skill and I don't want to waste my time in such fights

Armor/Combined/Recon/Infantry all the same but I prefer unrestricted as then I can get basically what I think is necessary. But the arty is what concerns me - naval guns are plain stupid for example...

Just my thoughts

[Stixx]

Originally posted by jwxspoon:

I can see the wine for us ROW designers going down the drain.

jw

I can think of better places for it to go!

Stix

[Fionn]

Well, it looks like at least 3 participants like unlimited settings ( with some common sense of course).

2 don't. What do the others say?

[Wreck]

The only setting I care about limiting is arty. Like others, I don't care to get in an arty duel. Imagine: my naval observers against your 300mm rocket horde (or whatever) in an ME.

[Treeburst155]

Originally posted by Deathdealer:

Everything else is fine but

a) no flaktrucks

guns should have towing vehicle in MEs and in attacks

c) definitely I want some arty limit - Scipios artillery rules are something I ALWAYS use and that's a fact ... to me artillery duels prove nothing of players skill and I don't want to waste my time in such fights

Armor/Combined/Recon/Infantry all the same but I prefer unrestricted as then I can get basically what I think is necessary. But the arty is what concerns me - naval guns are plain stupid for example...

Just my thoughts

Flaktrucks- I don't think anyone has a problem with ruling out flaktrucks. Flaktrucks are out.

Item B, towing vehicles for guns- we will run into disagreement here so this is best left to the special rules for "your" scenario.

Arty- caliber is limited by the rulesets.

As for limiting the number of points that can be spent on arty, we might be able to come to a unanimous agreement on this if we set a high enough limit. Arty is limited to 30% of total points.

Unlimited TYPE- this is not unanimous so must be left to the individual scenario designs.

If there are any objections to the rules in bold (Arty point limit and Flaktrucks)post here, and these things will also be left up to individual scenario design.

There is no better way to deal with disagreements than to leave them up to the players' scenario designs. As I said earlier, this insures everyone is dissatisfied with 6/7ths of the tourney. We'll please all the people some of the time since that seems more equitable than pleasing some of the people all the time.

BTW, players will be able to choose attack/defend or meeting for their scenarios since I haven't heard any dissent regardng that proposal.

Treeburst155 out.

[Fionn]

I don't think I've ever bought more than 30% arty so I'd be cool with saying "Unlimited purchases except we use the honour system to keep arty below 30%".

It seems to me that that would prevent the arty massacres everyone ( including myself) wants to avoid whilst still allowing people to buy loads of HTs if they want mechanised forces or loads of HMGs or whatever...

[Broken]

Just to throw out a target to shoot at, here are my game parameters:

_______________________________________________

BATTLE PARAMETERS FORM

Defender Force Points: 3000

Max Force Points that can be edited out (dumping 2" mortars, etc.): unlimited

Map Size (small, medium, large): medium

Month: August

Time Of Day: day

Weather: clear

Ground Conditions: dry

Game Length: 31

Map Type (Farm, Rural, etc.): Village

Tree coverage: heavy

Hilliness: moderate

Force Purchase Ruleset: Panther 76 with 155mm limit.

Special Purchase Rules: No airplanes, Flak trucks, or AT mines (Daisy-chain OK).

Force: Single (Heer, Brit Airborne, etc). Mixing Prohibited.

force unknown to enemy

Purchase Limitations:

Infantry % : 100

Support % : 100

Armor % : 100

Artillery % : 25

Fortifications % : 100

[Treeburst155]

Broken,

There we go! That's what I want to see happening. You get one more choice I just added within the hour. Do you want your battle to be attack/defend or meeting?

EDIT: Oh, I see, you made your choice by omitting Meeting points.

________________________________________________

Broken's choice of 25% arty shows that arty limits should be left up to the individual scenario designs. IOW, he thinks 30% is too much.

I think what Fionn is driving at with his "honor system" is that he doesn't want players to find themselves a few points short of another arty purchase. This same situation applies to ALL the TYPE percentages where limits are set.

We should come to an understanding on how "hard" all the TYPE percentages are. Should we allow, say a 10 point fudge, so players aren't prevented from a purchase for lack of a few points? If we do allow some fudging we need to put a hard limit on it to prevent creep. I need concrete purchase rules! 10 points max fudge on TYPE percentages. If you miss a purchase by more than that you simply don't have the points to make that set of purchases. Any objections?

Treeburst155 out.

[ June 12, 2002, 02:59 PM: Message edited by: Treeburst155 ]

[Treeburst155]

ooooh, Broken!, nice map. Now for a little bit of the human touch....I'm building your scenario now.

Treeburst155 out.

[Broken]

Mike,

I omitted who the attacker is: Allied.

And I guess the correct term is "Modest" hills, although their quest for modesty should be satisfied with the heavy tree cover.

Also, Quality is Regular, Vet, or Crack.

[Fionn]

BATTLE PARAMETERS FORM

Defender Force Points: 3000

Max Force Points that can be edited out (dumping 2" mortars, etc.): unlimited

Map Size (small, medium, large): Hmm, I'd like 1 km wide map by 2.4 km deep. Otherwise the defence has no depth.

Month: October

Time Of Day: day

Weather: clear

Ground Conditions: dry

Game Length: 40

Map Type (Farm, Rural, etc.): Rural

Tree coverage: Light

Hilliness: Modest Hills

Force Purchase Ruleset: Panther 76 with 120mm limit.

Special Purchase Rules: NO exceptions to Panther/76. Exceptions unbalance the rules and, IMO, shouldn't be allowed in the tournament unless BOTH sides agree/

Force: Single (Heer, Brit Airborne, etc). Mixing Prohibited.

force unknown to enemy

Purchase Limitations:

Infantry % : 100

Support % : 100

Armor % : 100

Artillery % : 100

Fortifications % : 100