Artillery Spotters and more..

[Panzer Man]

How important are these guys...They can easily change the outcome of a battle..My only suggestion is that they should be harder to spot..How can a tank or cannon over a 1000 meters away see a spotter hiding in bushes,or peeking thru a window?..Also,why cant crew members link up and create full halftracks again..I can understand Tank crews being left out to dry,but there would be nothing wrong with the half track crews hppking up and getting back into action..I had one crew member knocked out and the vehicle was pretty much useless after that..Just a few little things to make a great game even better..

[Maastrictian]

My experience with spotter is that they die real easy, but are only spotted occasionally. As for half tracks... come on, your buddy maning the MG has just been hit. Are you going to tend to him or are you going to hop out of your perfetally good HT dodge some MG fire and jump into the HT next to you? Perhaps it could (and even did) happen. But was it common?

Not sure how Ops handle this, it might be appropriate there.

--Chris

[Panzer Man]

I was talking about those poor souls who were blown out of their halftracks and are just walking around aimlessly..I had a half track whose driver bought it..so it just sat there.(Like the "Shocked" state)..now if there was a way for the crews to "join" each other they could have gotten back into action..Lets put the injured guy in the back seat..or leave him for the medic..

[Guest Germanboy]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Panzer Man:

I was talking about those poor souls who were blown out of their halftracks and are just walking around aimlessly..<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

These guys usually have a very low moral state and are probably desperate to attend an engagement elsewhere, preferably at a place with less hot metal zinging about.

My arty spotters usually are not spotted if they are set up carefully or moved carefully. Only when I make very stupid mistakes do I lose them before they get through their ammo. Also, don't forget that you can use them to indirect fire, you don't have to have LOS.

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Andreas

[Thunderlips]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Germanboy:

Also, don't forget that you can use them to indirect fire, you don't have to have LOS.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I haven't tried using indirect fire with a spotter. I'd imagine they are a lot less efective? Guess I should try it for myself.

Tony

[Jager 7]

My experience also is that FO's are not that easy to spot unless they do something careless or stupid (me not them ).

By the way and not to nit pick terribly but it's all indirect fire. You are referring to targeting a location that is unobserved by the FO correct? You can do this but generally it takes longer for the fires to arrive and then that fire tends to be more scattered I believe.

Out here....

[Ghengis Jim]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Germanboy:

Also, don't forget that you can use them to indirect fire, you don't have to have LOS.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Hey I am very new to this game as you can probably see, but I cannot figure out how to use the artillery spotters for indirect fire. I mean, isn't indirect fire technically when nobody has any idea what is getting shot at? Thats what I always thought, but then, I have probably been playing the east and west front series too long.

What I mean by that is how do you get your artillery to fire in a general area W/out your artillery spotter actually seeing this area? Or is that impossible...?

[CavScout]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Ghengis Jim:

Hey I am very new to this game as you can probably see, but I cannot figure out how to use the artillery spotters for indirect fire. I mean, isn't indirect fire technically when nobody has any idea what is getting shot at? Thats what I always thought, but then, I have probably been playing the east and west front series too long.

What I mean by that is how do you get your artillery to fire in a general area W/out your artillery spotter actually seeing this area? Or is that impossible...?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

"Indirect fire" is fire delievered onto a target that does not use the target itself as a point of aim for the weapon/director.

An easier way may be to think that indirect fire does not require a LOS from the weapon to the target as one does not aim the weapon at the target.

Cav

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"War does not determine who is right - only who is left."

-Bertrand Russell

"For Americans war is almost all of the time a nuisance, and military skill is a luxury like Mah-Jongg. But when the issue is brought home to them, war becomes as important, for the necessary period, as business or sport. And it is hard to decide which is likely to be the more ominous for the Axis--an American decision that this is sport, or that it is business."-D. W. Brogan, The American Character

[John Kettler]

Ghengis Jim,

Technically speaking, there are two types of indirect fire: observed (FO eyeballing target, making adjustments as needed before firing for effect) and unobserved or map fire (crossroads, artillery positions, troop concentrations, etc.).

In CM, an FO can bring down fire anywhere his guns can reach simply by hitting the Target or Target Wide command and dropping his aimpoint where he wants it, regardless of blocked LOS. That's the good news.

The bad news is that it takes at least twice as long and the pattern is not tight, because this is fire based solely on the goodness of the map, meteorological conditions, and the individual biases of the guns and projectiles, with no successive adjustments before fire for effect. The real solution to the timeliness problem is a TRP, target reference point. This is an area on which the guns have been registered (prezeroed) before the battle in anticipation of a need. "We expect AT fire from that ridge. Make that Concentration 1." "There's a wooded valley we can't see into that would make a perfect enemy assembly area. Better put a concentration there." TRPs can be purchased for 30 points each if you buy your troops but are otherwise assigned in the scenario.

I'm trying to get more TRPs into the game, especially dug-in defensive situations where the defender would've walked the ground, registered multiple defensive concentrations, etc., before the battle. This is both realistic and somewhat offsets the fact that MGs can't fire through smoke.

Hope this helps.

John Kettler

[Jager 7]

John,

You are correct about the two types of arty targeting in CM and about the advantages and disadvantages. However there is something I would like to clear up and it has been bugging me since I first played the demo months ago.

A TRP (Target Reference Point)in reality is used for direct fire weapons only,(tanks, MGs, TOW missles etc) not artillery. There is no such thing as a TRP for artillery. The TRP in CM is an abstract variation on what artillery calls "Priority Targets". PTs are those targets designated by the manuever commander that for whatever reason he feels are luctrative or threatening. What it means to the arty is that every time they finish a fire mission they come back to lay on their priority target grid. There can be up to three priority targets per battery.

Being already layed on the target will speed up response time but not necessarily increase accuracy. Increased accuracy will only be the case if the target has already been adjusted on preivously and recorded as a target with the refined data added to the solution.

There is such a thing as artillery registration but that is used to obtain accurate firing data for subsequent engagement of targets.

The bottom line is that first round accuracy for a fire mission is only as good as the FO's target locating abilities and skill, the Fire Direction Center's accuracy with their computations, and the gun line's application of firing data to the guns themselves. All can be adversely affected by weather, wind, range-to-target, powder temperature and ammunition lot etc, etc.

Firing at an unobserved target via a map spot is obviously inaccurate and will continue to be so as long as there is on FO to adjust it. However, if the battery did a precision registration sometime previously they can often times be very accurate even against an unobserved target.

I hope that helps some. I think TRPs as they are in CM should probably be renamed as Priority Targets or preplanned targets and their accuracy should not be very good if there are no "eyes" on to see the impacts.

By the way, preplanned targets are usually only map spot grids added to a target list reflecting known enemy locations or structures etc. In other words, they aren't any more accurate than anything else.

The good news is a trained (veteran)FO can adjust onto a target he can see very quickly and accurately.

I love arty topics...can you tell...

Have a great day

Out here....

[Ben Galanti]

I think the TRP is supposed to represent what you calling artillery registration. That is, the solution for that point has already been calculated, and as such it should take only one or two adjustment rounds to get on target. Now, CM abstracts those adjustment rounds into the response time (it shows one or two adjustment rounds, but longer response times are supposed to represent the zeroing in on the target)

[Jager 7]

Ben,

I think if TRPs are used at all they should reduce response time only and not improve first round accuracy. A normal American 105mm Spotter in CM has about a 2 minute lag from targeting to FFE. I'd like to see that reduced to say 30 seconds. This would reflect a Priority target. Having a Priority Target or in CM a "TRP" still does not insure accuracy in real life.

The problem with treating the TRP as a registered target is then we are assuming the artillery battery has already fired on and recorded that target...not a likely occurance inside the scale of the game. Yet really the only way to improve arty accuacy of that first volley.

Registrations are done usually only once a day and then not usually against an active target. Registration is used simply to ensure accurate firing of subsequent missions.

Now here's an idea for future patches or revisions. How about allowing the FO to adjust onto a target he can see and then record that target and place a Target symbol on the map? That would allow the FO to refire that target with first round accuracy any time thereafter. Might be very complicated to program but would be a very realistic feature.

The bottom line is realistically the the only way to get accurate artillery fire is to adjust it during the game. The TRP should not really be an aid to first round accuracy although it could be used to shorten response time.

Out here...

[Lorak]

I'm pretty sure the TRP is a registration target. Thats why on board units can fire at this target without LOS. As the location has already been dialed in. Oviously they lose the TRP advantage if they move because thier range and bearing are no longer good. Same with your off board artillery. An FO can order fire at a TRP out of LOS without it being scattered fire. Because the Off board guns already have the range and bearing to the target.

So I think TRP's should most likely be used by defenders, who have had the time to set up and prepare areas of fire. As an attacker you can still use them, but think of them as " we pre-shelled this area before the attack, and this is where are guns were dialed in.

make sense?

Lorak

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Proud commander of the CCT's Chinchilla Commando Teams

[Jager 7]

Lorak,

If you think of a TRP as a previously fired and recorded target then it almost makes sense. Again, registration is a different animal.

The only problem is that if an FO has a "TRP" outside his LOS he can achieve first round effects each and every time he calls for fire. This would be exactly the case if the target had been fired previously and the replot data recorded by the FDC. No problem, some FO prior to game time called in that target, adjusted on it and had the Fire Direction Center at the battery record the data and add it to their firing solution.

However, that being the case the FO should not lose the ability to achieve first round effect simply because he moves. A recorded target has nothing at all to do with the FO's location once he has fired on it. In other words he could go back to the rear for coffee, call the arty battery and request fire on "Tgt # AE1006" and be confident that the rounds would have decent effect. Once the target is recorded the firing data stays valid until the Battery moves...not the FO.

Does that make sense?

The TRP as it is represented in the game is an abstract tool combining some real and some fictional assumptions. Not a big deal but I agree that if used at all as they are portrayed presently in CM they should be restricted to Defenders use only. They would have had time to fire on and adjust onto those targets and get excellent target data.

In a defensive situation of this nature not only would the Spotter (FO) have first round effects he should also be able to call for and recieve rounds within the same game turn. Just my opinion based on real world arty.

Out here...

[Jager 7]

Lorak,

Addendum;

I reread your post and saw you were not talking about the FO moving and losing his TRP, but the on board firing units...my mistake.

The only problem with having a recorded target "TRP" that all can fire on is that it would have to be a mortar target recorded by the mortar FDC...which would not be usable by off-map artillery...and vice versa. A single recorded target, if that is what we are considering a "TRP" to be, is only good for a single firing arm...arty or mortar...not both. The reasons have to do with position survey of the battery and or mortar section.

Out here...

[Panzer Man]

Hey,,Im glad I started this post,,and I'm Playing Butgenbach now and I have no arty !!!!!! Oh well...Next scenario...

[MoatnGator]

TRPs are only for direct fire?

You sound like you have rained some death from above first hand... but unless we were really confused and our infantry manuals were talking about the M1 abrahms not atry support we used TRPs often on withdrawal from a raid.

We would cover avenues that our scouts deemed probable covers for reinforcements or trailing bad guys.

It's been awhile but I don't think that guns or tanks used TRPs. From my reference it was from mortars or other indirect fire

Also as far as Half tracks.... The Rangers in Somalia (sp?) had several guys go down manning the same guns. One guy would get shot and the next would step up to man the gun. This was while their jeeps were swerving and weaving through the twisted streets. Note being that, while the gun is able the crew should be manning it.

Shaken or not, you stand a better chance with a .50 cal then running off to the bushes with a pistol. (Course the rangers had more than pistols)

Pardon me if I am speaking out of my arse, but it is painfully slow at work.

[Tread Head]

FIRE MISSION!

shell He

Fuse Vt

Charge 3

Deflection 2344

Quadrant 456

FIRE!

or

TANK!

Crap!

Where?

2 o clock!

Target!

Set set set set set

Fire!