Cavalry - Motorcycles

[The Oak]

Not a complaint, just wishful thinking: It appears the cavalry have no horses, and the German M/C units are without their BMWs. I was hoping the re-create some of the "Cross of Iron" scenarios using cavalry and motorcycles....

[Phoenix]

Do a search on "motorcycle" and "horse"

BTS has explained why neither is in the game on several occasions.

[Chad Harrison]

We have all wanted to recreate the COI battles, and ASL veteran is working on some. But, no horses and no motorcylces until a future game, if even then.

Chad

[The Oak]

I did a search on "Horse" and "Motorcycle," althought I could not find a difinitive answer.

I plan on using jeeps/kubelwagens as a replacement in ASL scenarios with motorcycles, and trucks for cavalry squad mounts. That sould work for now....until CM 6..............

[Michael Emrys]

In brief: Horses are out because of the added drain on the 3D system to animate them. Motorcycles because BTS was convinced that they would be used in all sorts of gamey non-historical ways.

Michael

[Ales Dvorak]

Originally posted by Michael emrys:

Motorcycles because BTS was convinced that they would be used in all sorts of gamey non-historical ways.

Like jeep.

[Andreas]

ISTR that gamey abuse was only part of the reason why motor-cycles are not in. The other was the difficulty to model squads broken into sub-teams.

[The Oak]

I was trying to recreate ASL Scenario AP 7: "Directive Number Three," in which there are 6 Soviet M/C squads. I was going to purchase 12 jeeps with 6 recon squads, split the squads, and mount them in the jeeps. I was planning on doing the same (with cavalry squads)in any scenarios calling for mounted cavalry. Has anyone else come up with another equivalent?

[Renaud]

That sounds pretty cool Oak. I like clever scenarios that use units in new ways.

Ren

[Priest]

And that neither could be proven to be used heavily in frontline battle. Both would have been ditched behind the frontline to assume combat in most situations.

[The Oak]

They were used for reconnaissance, and for raids behind enemy lines. Oftentimes, recon troops would avoid contact and bypass enemy resistance (a good exit objective for a scenario). The following "Cross of Iron" scenarios actually use mounted Russian Cavalry:

"A Winter Melee"

"Debacle at Korosten"

"Breakout from Borisov"

I have read of occasions where Russian Cavalry would remain mounted (using PPsH SMGs) in order to gain suprise and maintain the momentum. It can be said that the Russians actually perfected the Cavalry Division in regards to its use in a modern army, as they were used right up to the end of the war (especially in lower mobility areas such as the Pripet Marshes). Not having cavalry or M/Cs doesn't ruin the game for me, I was just trying to come up with some alternatives for scenarios using them.

[Bastables]

A.D. Did you ever attack on horseback?

There were mounted attacks only at the academy, we didn't use our sabers, and never encountered enemy cavalry. The horses at school were so trained, that even after hearing a pitiful "Ura!" they charged forward, all you did was try to hold them back... No, we didn't. We fought dismounted. Horse holders stayed under cover with the horses. Although, often they paid for it, since Germans sometimes shelled them with mortars. There was one horse holder for a squad of 11 horses.

A.D. How were you armed?

We were mostly armed with carbines, but in the beginning of 43 they gave us SMGs.

(Lt Nikolai Dupak 11 Cav Div Later 8th Guards Cav)

[ October 02, 2002, 09:50 PM: Message edited by: Bastables ]

[Priest]

That was actually the quote I was looking for Bastables.

[Harold]

I looked at D#3 and took it off my "to do" list because of the sickles. However, if you substitute trucks or something of the like it might be fun. I did play it as the boardgame version and hated it simply because one side would make a sweeping move while the other watched and then the other side got its chance to do the same. ASL is IMO not a good game to simulate large armor movements. It was meant to be an infantry game. The time dilation, especially with fast armor like that found in D#3 really skews it. However, CM is another story and it is worth looking at. Good luck with it.

[The Oak]

I have played two versions of "Hill 621" as well as "Breakout from Borisov" (from two different authors), as well as "Hube's Pocket." Some SL/ASL scenarios need modification in regards to OOB and terrain in order to run well on CMBB, however it's nice to be able to replay some of those classic scenarios. Using jeeps/recon squads in the "Debacle at Korosten" and "A Winter Melee" seems the most reasonable conversion.

[Ales Dvorak]

Originally posted by Bastables:

A.D. Did you ever attack on horseback?

No.

[IronChef4]

Heeheehee,

I remember having all kinds of fun with motorcycles in Steel Panthers.

Aaaaah. . .memories. . .

[The Oak]

Who said anything about attacking on horseback anyways? Cavalry did not dismount and hump 5 KM to their attack positions either. Similarly, they did not walk 15 miles on a recon mission and pick up their mounts at the end of the day.

Panzer grenadiers never attacked on the back of a truck either, yet truck borne panzer grenadiers are used in the game. Should trucks be taken out of the game as well? And when is the last time someone attacked a position from a Kubelwagen? Perhaps we should take them out as well.

SL Scenario 17 depicts a raid situation when a cavalry unit fought mounted:

SL Scenario # 17 : "Debacle at Korosten"

"Along the Kiev Road, August 30, 1941. As the front spread with each German Success, vast gaps were left in the main line. The gaps proved to be perfect avenues of approach for the far-ranging Russian cavalry. One such daring group, the 1st Regiment, 2nd Cavalry Division, rode deep behind German Lines to the map depot of the 6th Army, near the town of Korosten. Waiting until twilight, they drew their sabres and came sweeping across the steppes like the Cossacks of old. The German rear echelon troops were totally stunned, and many were indeed dispatched by the sword."

[Sergei]

BFC was first against including ski infantry, because they thought they were not realistic to be used in attack. True in a sense, but the use of skis in deep snow conditions is not that while skiing you at the same time shoot a SMG from your hip, but rather that they add mobility, and were often used in CMBB level battles. I'm glad they altered their minds on that.

[TSword]

ok,ok all fine reasoning why they couldn't make it in. BUT

why not invest a tiny little bit of brainpower on workarounds ???

- I would be more then happy to have a VW-Schwimmwagen with MG (As in real) with 3-men transport capacity.

- For the Russ-cav already a vector-blob (A non-animated cube would already do it..) or even a sprite for a horse would be enough. -> Squad mounts a single Horse sprite and can therefore move somewhat faster.

- Now we have no recon-forces in the game worth the name (A SS-Tankunit had a Recon-bat !). The VW-Kuebel is just to slow crosscountry and has no armament to supress, the SPW-family is also to slow and bulky, leaves only the exotic PSW's where the smaller ones can transport nothing. Hope to see something in the patch to give us recon-units.

Greets

Daniel

[Schrullenhaft]

I think we'd all agree that it would be nice to include horses, motorcycles and various other vehicles and units that aren't in CMBB if their abuses and other issues could be worked around. Unfortunately there wasn't enough time to add some of these units, which also presented issues with the way that CM works.

For horses and motorcycles, the lack of 1-to-1 representation was one factor that killed their inclusion, which prevented them from working in an acceptable way with the current engine. Their true combat value was another one. While there have been engagements with mounted motorcycle units and horse mounted cavalry in the GPW, these weren't the universal methods of engagment.

On top of those problems there were other issues with modelling horses. Not only was the movement animation a bit of a problem with the current engine, but the horses themselves needed a TacAI to react that was different from AFVs and infantry. Then there are other complexities such as accounting for casualties (horse wounded, rider not), etc. All these factors came together with a lack of time and a huge amount of other things to include that essentially eliminated them from consideration.

If you want to point out the inclusion of soft vehicles, becareful. BTS/BFC really couldn't care if these vehicles were actually included and they could have been dropped from CMBO if it wasn't for the potential outcry. Since their inclusion wasn't really hard (just additional models, textures and some unique TacAI) they made it in for CMBO (and thus ensured their carryover to CMBB).

If you believe that people wouldn't care that the horses were 'unanimated sprites' you would be wrong. While a number of us could accept such a graphical inconsistency for the sake of including the unique properties of horse mounted units - many players and reviews wouldn't. There was enough criticism of CMBO's dated graphics in reviews, that any graphical inconsistencies with CMBB would be focused on immediately for an inappropriate amount of criticism from reviewers and players. In the end horses just couldn't make it in.

As for motorcycles one of the primary problems was the 1-to-1 relationship for vehicles that is the current standard. I'm speaking here of motorcycle mounted recon units (infantry squads) where a three-man represenatation stands in for 8-13 men. The same couldn't be done for a motorcycle-mounted squad since it would violate the 1-to-1 representation of vehicles in the game, but that would cause a problem with the representation of a dismounted unit (half-half-squads). Single motorcycles were eliminated primarly because of their 'gamey recon' abilities with CM. The temptation to use such a low priced unit apparently outweighs representing it in CM for now.

In the future, with relative spotting in place it may be possible to represent some of these missing units. However no spotting system will be able to completely eliminate the gamey recon problem without a very severe change in the way the game is played and hence its playability.

Maybe with the engine rewrite some things may come to pass. However don't expect to see any of these missing units in a patch for CMBB.

[The Oak]

I totally understand why mounts and M/Cs weren't included in CMBB. It wasn't a complaint, just a post to solicit ideas of how to represent light recon units (or infantry units with high mobility). It's not that many scenarios call for these type of units, however when re-creating a specific scenario it's nice to be able to represent these units and their tactical possibilities. My reference to soft vehicles was only to show that not many units (Cav, M/C, or truck borne Pz Gren) attacked while mounted (unless ambushed). It appears that mounts and M/Cs weren't included because of modeling, not merely because of how they were or weren't used tactically. I appreciated the constructive responses, and it was interesting to see how others felt about the subject (negative or positive).