Romania bombed Hungary to force it to attack USRR?

[killmore]

I have a book that claims that Romania bombed Hungary (June 1941) in order to force them to join war against USRR.

Romanian planes were repainted and modified to make them look like soviet planes.

This is the first time I see this fact so is this true?

[Grisha]

No, it was Germany that bombed Hungary. Check the latest book, Black Cross/Red Star. It was a German ploy to get Hungary in the war. They flew planes marked as Soviet aircraft.

[von Lucke]

Similar to the odd little tid-bit of trivia that the French airforce (or what was left of it) bombed Gibraltar in July 1940 in retaliation for Mers-el-Kebir.

[Grisha]

killmore, actually you are right! I got my facts wrong. Here's the quote from Black Cross/Red Star, Vol. 1:

In the context of strategic air raids, the Romanian FARR carried out one of the most decisive strategic bombing missions in history during these days. On June 26, 1941, three P.37 Los bombers of the Romanian Grupul 4 Bombardament were sent on an ultrasecret mission: Posing as "Soviet" planes, they dropped thirty 50-pound bombs on the Hungarian town of Kosice with the intention of provoking Hungary to declare war on the USSR. Thirty-two people were killed and 280 injured.

The plot worked.

Source reference is to - A. Glass, K. Cieslak, W. Gawrych, and A. Skupiewski. Samoloty bombowe wrzesnia 1939. Warsaw: SIGMA-NOT, 1991.

God, can't type to save my life today.

[ August 14, 2002, 11:12 AM: Message edited by: Grisha ]

[Bruno Weiss]

Romania had planes?

[Michael Dorosh]

Originally posted by Bruno Weiss:

Romania had planes?

Romania had the third largest army on the Eastern Front, Bruno. She put more troops in the field in Europe than Canada and possibly even Great Britain. She contributed a great deal to the Axis cause, and then to the Allied cause in August 1944 when she switched sides. She lost twice as many men between Aug 44 and May 45 than were lost in the whole Russian campaign between Jun 41 and Aug 44.

Significantly, Romania had territorial axes to grind with Hungary dating back to World War One, when she took over Tranylvania and Bessarabia - but the Germans (upon whom many nations looked to security after 1940) forced her to give back lands to Hungary. Romania had allied itself with Czechoslovakia, Poland and France in the 1930s. By 1940 you can see the spot they were in.

If you are really asking about aircraft types and not intending to demean Romania's war role as a whole, I can't comment specifically on aircraft types, but they did have their own pilots and planes.

[ August 14, 2002, 12:08 PM: Message edited by: Michael Dorosh ]

[mike the wino2]

Hhhmmm, aftering reading the post above it makes one wonder, is Michael Dorosh Romanian? :confused:

[Kingfish]

Romanian airforce during WW2

[Michael Dorosh]

Originally posted by mike the wino:

Hhhmmm, aftering reading the post above it makes one wonder, is Michael Dorosh Romanian? :confused:

Wonder no longer. I'm not.

[killmore]

Feels like half of Rumanian planes were Polish...

[Schrullenhaft]

Most likely. Romania didn't have much of an industrial capacity. Most of their aircraft and tanks were bought from other countries (the aforementioned France, Czech Republic and Poland). The Germans gave them quite a bit of equipment after Barbarrossa had started since they lost quite a bit of armor in the Ukraine and again later when they lost a large majority of their armored forces during and after Stalingrad. Most of the equipment wasn't premiere front line material at the time, but it was significantly better than what the Romanians had before. The Romanians also utilized a bit of captured Soviet equipment during their march across the Ukraine, but much of it broke down at one point or another.

The 'homegrown' TACAM series were actually conversions of the Czech LT-35 (35t; R2 in Romanian service) and the Soviet T-60. What was most impressive was the 'Maresal', which was a tortoise-like tank that was a major influence on the design of the Hetzer. Unfortunately only 16 or less prototypes/first-series models were built (or nearing completion) and they supposedly didn't see combat (since Romania capitulated to the Soviets during the first 10 unit production run). The Soviets quickly shut down the program and didn't pursue it any further.

When the Romanians switched sides they kept a bit of their armor (and also had quite a bit of it confiscated by the Soviets). They continued to employ the armor (and aircraft) that the Germans gave them against their original manufacturers and the Hungarians. With a lack of spare parts and a lot of heavy action for the Romanians they 'wore through' the armor that they had. The Soviets however gave very little armor to the Romanians during the war (since they were still a bit suspicious of some Romanian military units and their desire to either setup a monarchy or pursue independence after the war). After the war the Soviets gave the Romanian military (and its 'Soviet-ensconced' satellite government) a number of AFVs (mostly T-34/85s, Ba-64B's, etc.) and aircraft.

[ August 14, 2002, 08:37 PM: Message edited by: Schrullenhaft ]

[Michael Dorosh]

I believe Romania had exactly one motor car plant - a Ford plant - and they produced exactly 10 trucks a day maximum.

[Schrullenhaft]

Correct. Which had some implications on the TACAM program since some Russian equipment utilized Ford parts.

[Michael Dorosh]

thanks for the info Schrullenhaft, but you should be careful. Now that I've identified you as a Romania-grog, I will be tempted to bombard you with dumb questions....better clamp your Dutch helmet on tight.

[Bruno Weiss]

Michael Dorosh wrote:

If you are really asking about aircraft types and not intending to demean Romania's war role as a whole, I can't comment specifically on aircraft types, but they did have their own pilots and planes.

ME! Demean Romania?!? Banish the thought. Yes, I know it's purely a technical point ofcourse, but I did state Romania had planes? Absent is any reference to the Romanian Army, or Romania itself, or BRAM Stoker for that matter.

Schrullenhaft wrote:

Romania didn't have much of an industrial capacity. Most of their aircraft and tanks were bought from other countries (the aforementioned France, Czech Republic and Poland).

Precisely. Which is what prompted my question. What aircraft did Romania have? At least during the early years. I presume the Luftwaffe provided aircraft logistics later in the war.

[Michael Dorosh]

Originally posted by Bruno Weiss:

ME! Demean Romania?!? Banish the thought. Yes, I know it's purely a technical point ofcourse, but I did state Romania had planes? Absent is any reference to the Romanian Army, or Romania itself, or BRAM Stoker for that matter.

I apologize - and on behalf of Count Dracula, the Undead, I thank you!

[Grisha]

Romania did have an indigenous fighter called the I.A.R. 80. Not a bad plane if a little underpowered:

http://www.fortunecity.com/tattooine/farmer/120/iar.html

[Schrullenhaft]

Which is what prompted my question. What aircraft did Romania have? At least during the early years. I presume the Luftwaffe provided aircraft logistics later in the war.

Well, if you're really interested then this website Romanian Army in WWII has some info on all of the aircraft models employed by the Romanians (with most of the German ones coming later in the war). Unfortunately there are no numbers associated with each model to tell off-hand which were the most common, but if you go to the Main menu > Organization > Air Force you can get an idea of the numbers and when the aircraft were actually fielded.

At the beginning of Barbarossa the Romanian Air Force consisted of Polish, Italian, French, German, British and native Romanian aircraft. Many of the Polish, Italian, French & British aircraft would be scrapped during reorganizations later in the war, with the German and Romanian models dominating the rest of the war.

[ August 14, 2002, 08:32 PM: Message edited by: Schrullenhaft ]

[Bruno Weiss]

Coincedentally enough, it does very much resemble the FW-190. Something else interesting that I did not know. The Ploesti raids of July 9 and 15, 1944 were met by about 25 I.A.R.80 sorties. Seems most accounts of the Ploesti raids focus on the Luftwaffe interception. Wonder what the kill ratio was for this aircraft against the Soviets.

[Bastables]

You can try here as well for an account of IAR80/81s vs the 15th Air force

http://www.elknet.pl/acestory/vizanti/vizanti.htm

[ August 14, 2002, 10:49 PM: Message edited by: Bastables ]

[Bruno Weiss]

Oh absolutely no offense taken Michael Dorosh. Romania has some real hotties, cool castles, and a neat history. Did I mention hotties.

I'm one of those with a keen interest in the Luftwaffe, and I was aware of Romanian air units participation with the Luftwaffe in general, (the Black Hussars JU-87's etc.,), but I was not that aware of the Romanian built I.A.R. 80's history or the extent of its activity. Particularly with regard to the Ploesti raids. While I have not studied it indepth, most accounts I've read or seen focus on the German fighter aircraft, particularly the BF109 during that engagement. I wonder how rugged that aircraft was. The FW190, particularly the later varients, could take substantial damage. Now I'm curious as to the particulars of the I.A.R. 80 series and the tactics used by its pilots.

[dor]

Originally posted by killmore:

Feels like half of Rumanian planes were Polish...

They also had a factory at Brasov to produce their own planes. The I.A.R.'s were good enough to challenge the Soviet air force,especially I.A.R.-64 and I.A.R.-80 models.

[Bruno Weiss]

Wonder how many, if any, survived the war? Or if anyone has refurbished one and has it flying. The annual CAF airshow is on this weekend where I live, and as is usual, they are overflying the city with B-17's and B-24's, Mustangs, Zero's, and a JU-88. They'll do it all weekend. It's pretty cool to see.