Sharpshooters- How sharp is too sharp?

[Wild Bill]

I was playing CMBB last night and something caught my attention. My men were killed by sharpshooters. The thing that caught my attention was the fact that the sharpshooter got my men from around a corner. This means that the bullets must have turned the corner to hit my guys. This shows a fault in realism. On the other hand, the next time I found a sharpshooter I stood them in the open, and he didn't get one of my men. This also show a lack of computer AI. I found a way to make the sharpshooters like gods. A simple re-writing of a few program files, and my sharpshooters are razor sharp and the realism is fixed to perfection. Has anyone else encountered problems like this? And tell me, how sharp is too sharp?

[Stixx]

Originally posted by Wild Bill:

A simple re-writing of a few program files, and my sharpshooters are razor .

Does this mean what i think it means? :confused:

I hope not!

[Michael Emrys]

I assume by "around a corner" you are referring to a corner of a building, correct me if I'm wrong. In that case, you should understand that the graphic on the screen does not always represent the true dimensions of objects in terms of the game engine's calculations. In other words, it may be the case that the corner of the building was not where you thought it was and the bullets' paths were perfectly legitimate.

As for him missing men in the open, that could just be luck, or any number of factors.

Michael

[Bruno Weiss]

Wild Bill wrote:

I found a way to make the sharpshooters like gods. A simple re-writing of a few program files, and my sharpshooters are razor sharp and the realism is fixed to perfection.

You found what way? You rewrote a few program files? Or you want them rewritten? Are you saying you modified the game somehow?

[ October 12, 2002, 08:20 AM: Message edited by: Bruno Weiss ]

[Shatter]

I totally agree, for some time I have Sharpe Shooters, kind of lacking in any major role other than suppressing or killing Tank Commanders.

I to have had wildly extreme results with sharpe shooters. Example a sharpe shooter and an MG42 in a large building holding a street. Infantry is pushing up this section of road. MG42 is doing his job, but the sharpe shooter, has either extemely effective accuracy or piss poor.

1st shot: at squad of infantry = 1 kill

2nd shot: at another squad of infantry = 2 kills

3rd shot: 4 squads moving from building to building very close to one another = 0 kills

4th shot: 4-6 squads close together = 0 kills

5th shot: Platoon Hq = 1 kills

6th shot: 3 squads close together = 0 kills

7th shot: 5-6 squads close together = 2 kills

All shots fired over 3 turns and while not underfire. All shots fired from ranges of 350 meters to 100 meters.

I just think if a squard is crossing a road 150 meters out with no cover, 8 times out of 10 at least 1 kill should be accounted for. Also 8 of 10 being the worst case basis.

Get me and my .308 out and I will (at the minimum) hit 8 out of 10 at 150 meters.

[ October 12, 2002, 08:05 AM: Message edited by: Shatter ]

[Chupacabra]

In other words, you're full of it. There aren't "a few program files," there's the 6.7 mb .exe. That's it.

[Chupacabra]

Originally posted by Shatter:

Get me and my .308 out and I will (at the minimum) hit 8 out of 10 at 150 meters.

Are you a) being shot at tired c) scared d) malnourished e) firing at targets that are moving quickly from cover to cover?

Maybe sharpshooters are busted, I have no idea (although they've worked fine for me so far), but the "well I can do X now so the game is broke" argument just doesn't work.

[Fishu]

What is the use of snipers in CM?

I find these snipers having too small amount of ammo to have any great impact versus the cost.

For same price could get an MG full of ammo and kill loads of enemies, not to talk about the area suppression.

With quick tests 'crack' snipers killed on average every second shot from within 200 meters from open ground.

I think crack sniper on higher ground should be able to kill an enemy on open ground with one shot 4 times out of 5 shots.

[Michael Emrys]

Originally posted by Fishu:

I think crack sniper on higher ground should be able to kill an enemy on open ground with one shot 4 times out of 5 shots.

How come? I'm not challenging you, I'm just curious as to how you came up with that figure.

Michael

[Sgian Dubh]

I guess I'll weigh in here with my 2 cents.

I love long range shooting. One of my current favorites for this is my 7mm Remington Magnum for which I make custom loads. Used to hunt crows, etc. in Wisconsin which requires long range shooting.

I can reliably hit a 1' square target at 1000-1200 meters.

As for the ratio given for a crack sniper I would say that given the following:

1) The Sniper has surprise over his target.

2) It is a clear day with little or no wind.

3) The sniper has time to take the best shot (which can mean waiting for hours....)

Then a crack sniper should nearly always hit his target.

However, in a combat situation such as CMBB where the enemy will be inherently cautious, even prior to contact, because someone *might* be in the next treeline, where the sniper has to make do with (probably) less than optimal conditions and has a limited window of opportunity on a target, then the probability of a hit/kill is sharply degraded.

There is a distinct difference between sharp-shooting (which to me implies an excellent ability to get of a 'snap-shot' at a target and the kind of shooting done by a sniper.

In the book Barbarosa there is an excellent account of Russian snipers hunting a German sniper. It is much more a battle of wits and extreme patience, rather that the quick sharp-shooting that I mention above.

[Compassion]

Originally posted by Fishu:

With quick tests 'crack' snipers killed on average every second shot from within 200 meters from open ground.

I think crack sniper on higher ground should be able to kill an enemy on open ground with one shot 4 times out of 5 shots.

WHy are you wasting shots with crack sharpshooters at 200m? HEll, you can get kills with any infantry units at 200m... The advantage is reaching out 500...600...800m and getting a nice kill on a HQ unit or a TC... or if you are very luck you might get a big gun arty spotter.

[Sgt. Schultz]

I have had a great experience with a crack sharpshooter. Light vehicle killer supreme. He kills an AC, thin-skinned HE chucker or HT commander and the other guy(s) bail out. 3 vehicle kills in one game for a single crack SS. That is value for the points spent in my book.

I have also had them do nothing much. There are so many variables involved that you just have to play a plethora of games to get a feel for what situation is best.

Bait an enemy ATG to swing around so his armor plate is no longer facing the SS and watch him go to work.

[Mannheim Tanker]

One problem that people make in trying to judge the effectiveness of sharpshooters in CM is that they view them as snipers. They are not trained snipers in CM, but rather skilled shooters that are picked from the ranks and sent out to plink at the enemy. In other words, this isn't their job by training.

[Michael Emrys]

Originally posted by Mannheim Tanker:

One problem that people make in trying to judge the effectiveness of sharpshooters in CM is that they view them as snipers. They are not trained snipers in CM, but rather skilled shooters that are picked from the ranks and sent out to plink at the enemy. In other words, this isn't their job by training.

AMEN.

Michael

[ October 12, 2002, 03:06 PM: Message edited by: Michael emrys ]

[Fishu]

Originally posted by Compassion:

WHy are you wasting shots with crack sharpshooters at 200m? HEll, you can get kills with any infantry units at 200m... The advantage is reaching out 500...600...800m and getting a nice kill on a HQ unit or a TC... or if you are very luck you might get a big gun arty spotter.

If it hits that badly at target in the open within 200 meters, how can I expect to hit target which is concealed and most likely in covered position from 500 meters?

Mannheim Tanker,

It'd be nice if they would have more ammo than just 10 shots..

Rather skilled shooters should be like normal infantrymen but with special weapon.

[Sgian Dubh]

Mannheim made my point, but with a good deal less words

[Compassion]

Originally posted by Fishu:

If it hits that badly at target in the open within 200 meters, how can I expect to hit target which is concealed and most likely in covered position from 500 meters?

Why do you assume a covered position? Certainly of a unit's exposure is low, a hit proabability goew down.... in any event, A unit with binoculars to be able to pinpoint an enemy better at range. I also have experience with the game system in general that tells me that a lone gunman will have much better chances of doign anything by not being supressed... In general, my best luck with sharp shooters is between 300 & 500 m as they were designed to be used.

[V]

Originally posted by Fishu:

If it hits that badly at target in the open within 200 meters, how can I expect to hit target which is concealed and most likely in covered position from 500 meters?

I think the point is, from that distance, the sharpshooter will probably last longer instead of being blasted in 30 seconds if he opens fire on a TC at 200m.

Sharpshooters can do a great job for ya, or they can't. I have had excellent results in CMBB using them, and they are very handy just for keeping Russian tanks buttoned.

Usually, that is all I ever really need them for.

[ October 12, 2002, 05:29 PM: Message edited by: V ]

[geozero]

What game files were "re-written"??? What can be changed in the program?

BTW - in real life a sniper or sharp shooter (or any infantry soldier for that matter) is only as good as their weapon. How clean they can maintain it, how accurate it is, do they have a scope, do they have special training, etc. Many factors can go into being able to hit a target even at 200m. Personally I can hit a target up to 500m in prone position with no scope 80%-90% of the time.

So is the game engine at flaw OR is it being correctly modelled?

But why or how did ANYONE modify the game engine, that's MY BIG question.

[Captain Wacky]

Well, he claimed that he modified a few program files, but CMBB only has one "program" file, that being the CMBB.exe

I never heard of anyone cracking the CMBO.exe, and that game was around for 2 years. I find it hard to believe that someone has cracked the CMBB.exe in the 3 weeks that CMBB has been out.

[Michael Dorosh]

Originally posted by Michael emrys:

I assume by "around a corner" you are referring to a corner of a building, correct me if I'm wrong. In that case, you should understand that the graphic on the screen does not always represent the true dimensions of objects in terms of the game engine's calculations. In other words, it may be the case that the corner of the building was not where you thought it was and the bullets' paths were perfectly legitimate.

As for him missing men in the open, that could just be luck, or any number of factors.

Michael

Or in other words, picture one of your troopies peering his head around the corner - like the scene in Full Metal Jacket - and getting his head shot off.

[Wild Bill]

For all of you who replied I say "I am not full of it. Those who believe that modifying the game is impossible, it's really only mathamatically improbable. I work in computer game design, and am a student in an advanced real-time pace forum. If you are to question the very fact that I am right, then you ,my friends, are hypocrite's. All you need is a file splitter, a pentium 4, and 5 hours to spare. If you question the realism, without geometry, mathematics (because the impossible is only mathematically improbable) or simple attitude, you get the fact that bullets do turn corners. Such as the tracer AI. This gives the tracer a chance to choose its own path."

" For those who question the interlect of others, should look in a mirror."

[Mace]

Originally posted by Wild Bill:

Those who believe that modifying the game is impossible, it's really only mathamatically improbable. I work in computer game design, and am a student in an advanced real-time pace forum. If you are to question the very fact that I am right, then you ,my friends, are hypocrite's. All you need is a file splitter, a pentium 4, and 5 hours to spare. If you question the realism, without geometry, mathematics (because the impossible is only mathematically improbable) or simple attitude, you get the fact that bullets do turn corners. Such as the tracer AI. This gives the tracer a chance to choose its own path."

Sorry, but we're happy with the game AI as is.

Mace

[sheepshooter]

Originally posted by geozero:

W Personally I can hit a target up to 500m in prone position with no scope 80%-90% of the time.

It would be very interesting how you spot your target at 500m. Or how you are able to focus your eyes on your target through the sights at 500m.

And what kind of weapon would be build for ranges up to 500m w/o having some kind of scope?

My experience with assault rifles:

With my old 7,62mm it was possible to shoot up to 200m, maybe for ppl with better eyes to 250. The rifle itself could be (theoretically) used up to 350m, which was the range for it being equipped with a scope.

For a 5,56 assault rifle (even tho with better sights), range drops a little bit, if you are not shooting on a perfectly clear shooting range w/o wind.

Usually, effective fighting range for assault rifles were 75 - 150m for infantry squads and up to 350m for the sharpshooter (NOT a sniper, of course).

With 7,62mm the shooting range for "sport" events was up to 200m - at least on the events I shot at.

[Sergei]

Originally posted by Wild Bill:

" For those who question the interlect of others, should look in a mirror."

What is interlect? Something between lects?