NOTES FROM THEATRES OF WAR - Russia, Jan 1942

[Michael Dorosh]

These are some brief excerpts from appendix V of the Canadian Army Training Memorandum No. 16 (July 1942); the article is anonymous but entitled NOTES FROM THEATRES OF WAR No. 3: Russia, January 1942

I will probably put the entire article on my GD website, but I thought the following excerpts of interest and relevance to CM.

In the Mozhaisk area, where the fighting described in these notes mainly took place, snow was lying about three feet deep in the open and rather more in the forest. The weather was very cold, temperatures down to minus 40 Centigrade...

Interesting point about snow melting faster in the sun than in the trees...Something to consider for CM II? Or needless chrome?

The thickness of the ice on the river Dniepr near Viasma...was such that (the river) could be crossed by light tanks and artillery

They did this outside Leningrad too (Lake Ladoga). Will we see thick ice in CMBB?

Roads required constantly to be cleared of snow. Even in parts of the broad highway Moscow-Minsk, it was only possible to keep sufficient of the road clear just to permit two-way traffic.

Will CMBB have "cleared" roads in winter - or can uncleared roads simply be represented by open ground tiles and all roads are considered "cleared"?

The Russians have specialist ski troops....(and) a proportion of each infantry regiment was, however, trained to operate on skis, and the divisional motorized company was also trained as a ski unit.

It is reported that during their initial advance the Germans employed an enormous number of motor cycles. During the present winter operations these have no longer been in evidence, but they are making great use of pedal cycles.

None of which means they were used in tactical engagements, so I am NOT beating THAT dead horse.

The Russians have an extremely efficient mine detector which has proved invaluable and is, indeed, essential in clearing mines laid under the snow....Russian reports all agree that the way in which the Germans have used their pioneer units in the fore-front of the battle whenever they have been attacking has been very noticeable. The Russians, too, will frequently allot an engineer company to an infantry battalion if defences of any solidity are included in the objective.

Interesting....especially regarding the recent conversation on mixed forces.

The Russians carried out frequent operations by night. The Germans, possibly because they have had heavy casualties to their pre-war personnel specially trained in night fighting, do not seem at present to display so much aptitude for this type of work.

Fact or fiction?

Reports of the earlier fighting agree that German flame throwing tanks have been met with very rarely, and that their range has been about 35 yards only....nor have there been any reports of the existence of armoured cross-country vehicles for tranporting the motorized infantry of German armoured divisions.

Emphasis added by me - see the recent discussion on panzergrenadiers to see why I highlighted the last. The SPW did exist, but was so rare that this report does not mention it or believe it to exist (at least in this sector of the front).

[ February 02, 2002, 12:24 AM: Message edited by: Michael Dorosh ]

[Tero]

Originally posted by Michael Dorosh:

Interesting point about snow melting faster in the sun than in the trees...Something to consider for CM II? Or needless chrome?

In the open snow turns to water, water turns the ground into mud.... rasputitsa it is called (IIRC ). The ground is generally harder where there is trees.

They did this outside Leningrad too (Lake Ladoga). Will we see thick ice in CMBB?

Actually ice breaking under arty fire etc. But this was ruled out ages ago.

Command detonated ice mines would be nice.

Will CMBB have "cleared" roads in winter - or can uncleared roads simply be represented by open ground tiles and all roads are considered "cleared"?

No horsies, no sleds.

And who will be clearing the roads in no-mans land ? In the steppes the clearing of the roads in the FEBA has to be done at night. And most often manually. Hiwis ? And/or built in/mandatory fatigue setting for those nationalities with no provision for horse drawn snowplows ? Separate ice roads (trampeled paths outside the road network) for the nations accustomed to the climate ?

More to follow....

Yes, please.

[ February 02, 2002, 12:35 AM: Message edited by: tero ]

[Michael Dorosh]

Originally posted by tero:

In the open snow turns to water, water turns the ground into mud.... rasputitsa it is called (IIRC ). The ground is generally harder where there is trees.

But not in the space of 30 minutes...

[Tero]

Originally posted by Michael Dorosh:

But not in the space of 30 minutes...

I'll let you try driving your car into a VERY wet, VERY poorly constructed dirt road after a few tanks have travelled on it not 3 minutes ago. Just to see how deep you can bury your axels in the 30 minutes time period.

[Battlefront.com]

Fortunately I live in an area very similar to parts of Finland and Northern/Central Russia. Right now it is about 9 below zero F with the 25 mph gusting winds. Snow is also coming down now and again, with about 2 feet still on the ground (we have had crazy weather this year, as there should be 3 feet at least).

My first hand experience here has helped undestand the excellent sources on Eastern Front weather (accumulated by the US Army in the 1940s from German data and 1st hand accounts), plus numberous detailed accounts of conditions from battle reports, observations, etc. When in doubt, I look out the window

Some questions answered:

hey did this outside Leningrad too (Lake Ladoga). Will we see thick ice in CMBB?

I am pretty sure thick, thin, and none will all be in. Right now it is assumed to be thin or none, which for Western Europe is fairly accurate when you are talking about moving heavy vehicles over ice.

Will CMBB have "cleared" roads in winter - or can uncleared roads simply be represented by open ground tiles and all roads are considered "cleared"?

Roads are considered to be cleared, but more/less depending on snow cover for that scenario (we have several depths). There is little advantage of an unplowed road vs. open terrain when it comes to traversing men or machines.

None of which means they were used in tactical engagements, so I am NOT beating THAT dead horse.

Bicycles are certainly out as they are totally out of CM's scope. They also were horrible on anything but roads. Skiis, on the other hand, are still a possibility. Not sure, but we would like to include them. These were very much a tactically used item. If you have ever tried to walk through 3-4 feet of snow you would understand

Interesting....especially regarding the recent conversation on mixed forces.

Yes, the Germans, Soviets, Romanians, and Hungarians (not sure about Italians) all used their engineers/pioneers as specialized infantry. However, there were never enough to go around, so while one Battalion might be backed up by a company of Pioneers, many battalions at that same moment in time were not. In a typical German Infantry type division there were only three full companies of Pioneers, but 6-9 Battalions. So at best it was 1 for every 2 battalions, but generally by that point in the war the Pioneers were in reality quite understrengthed and holding their own sectors of the front or were held back as reserves.

Fact or fiction?

A little bit of both. I am not sure about the "special training" being much of a factor, but it is true that often Soviet sappers were hard at work during the night clearing paths through defenses. In the winter they even tunneled under the snow. And in one case, they tunneled under the earth in the summer! Right into the German's trenchline!! Boy, did that ever cause some problems.

But this is all outside of CM's scope.

Emphasis added by me - see the recent discussion on panzergrenadiers to see why I highlighted the last. The SPW did exist, but was so rare that this report does not mention it or believe it to exist (at least in this sector of the front).

I agree, and would also like to add that wargames have done a lot to reinforce this disinformation. Couple that with gamers loving to ride troops into battle and you got yourself a myth replicating itself over and over again.

Tero is quite right about how quickly unpacked dirt roads/tracks turn to mud. Packed surfaces, or those with much better drainage and less sun (i.e. forest floor), tend to be far less of a problem than open areas. The sun is very powerful even when the temps are cold. However, below a certain temp it doesn't really matter provided it has been cold for a long time prior. It takes a while for the ground to freeze down to the "frost layer".

Steve

[patolino]

Originally posted by Michael Dorosh:

and relevance to CM.

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr /> In the Mozhaisk area, where the fighting described in these notes mainly took place, snow was lying about three feet deep in the open and rather more in the forest. The weather was very cold, temperatures down to minus 40 Centigrade...

Interesting point about snow melting faster in the sun than in the trees...Something to consider for CM II? Or needless chrome?

</font>

[Kallimakhos]

Originally posted by patolino:

As childred we used to have "fun" jumping into 2-meter deep ditches between fields that were completely filled with snow (blown to the ditch by wind), giving the impression of a continuous, even field on the surface. Until you stepped into it and *whump* you end up in two meters of snow. With skis, no problem, but on foot... a tank might love it too? Perhaps in CM2?

Well it was fun unless it was early winter and the muddy stream at the bottom had not frozed solid

Anyway I hate that white excrement. Yuk.[/QB]

This was also my first thought: comfortably strolling in light fluffy snow, suddenly <whomp> and you are in it up to your armpits . I share your feeling, hate skiing too: it's not healthy for your groin when your other foot is touching your forhead and the other foot touching your backside .

[wadepm]

No, that white **** does not melt if it's 40 cent below zero, in the open or not.

Actually, what happens is the snow sublimates (go directly from a soild to a gas), i.e. it kind of evaporates if it is in the sun. Under the trees the sun can't get to it so it can't evaporate.

[Andreas]

Good stuff Michael - I look forward to seeing it on the GD site. nice bit of digging. I did not know they did these for the war in the east.

[Tero]

Originally posted by Big Time Software:

However, below a certain temp it doesn't really matter provided it has been cold for a long time prior. It takes a while for the ground to freeze down to the "frost layer".

Alternating temperatures are a bitch. First you get cold, then thaw and then cold again. During the thaw you get both mud and ice under the mud. You will be basically slipping and sliding in the mud. And if you get your vehicle stuck during the thaw and it gets cold overnight before you managed to pull your vehicle out it will be pick ax time.

[The Commissar]

Ha! I laugh at you snow-haters!

Some of my cherished memories involve cross-country skiing with my grandfather through some woods in the Moscow area as a child. They just don't have the kind of snow coverage where I live and damn do I miss it.

Hey Steve, where do you live? I might move there for the winter

Oh yeah, and to pretend to stay on topic, uh...snow definately doesn't melt in the sun if its very cold. The sun is powerful, but not powerful enough to stop some genuine winter chills. In the forests, snow usually can last till mid to late spring in Russia. Depends on the area, of course - im talking about once again, the Moscow area.

[Michael Dorosh]

dbl post

[ February 02, 2002, 03:55 PM: Message edited by: Michael Dorosh ]

[Michael Dorosh]

YOU SNOW GROGS ARE GIVING ME A MAJOR PAIN!!!

(Guys, I'm from Canada, so yeah, I know the freezing point of water is zero Celsius...)

But answer me this, experts all - when you roll around in the snow in cordouroy pants then sit in the sun - what happens? (This was all the rage when I was in Grade IV in school....)

[The Commissar]

Originally posted by Michael Dorosh:

But answer me this, experts all - when you roll around in the snow in cordouroy pants then sit in the sun - what happens? (This was all the rage when I was in Grade IV in school....)

When you take a little bit of snow and seperate it from the big pile and then place it in the sun, sure it will melt. But when the snow is piled on the ground, it doesnt melt nearly as fast, and sometimes not at all. Im sure there's a law of physics behind this all...

[Michael Dorosh]

Originally posted by The Commissar:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Michael Dorosh:

But answer me this, experts all - when you roll around in the snow in cordouroy pants then sit in the sun - what happens? (This was all the rage when I was in Grade IV in school....)

When you take a little bit of snow and seperate it from the big pile and then place it in the sun, sure it will melt. But when the snow is piled on the ground, it doesnt melt nearly as fast, and sometimes not at all. Im sure there's a law of physics behind this all...</font>

[The Commissar]

Originally posted by Michael Dorosh:

Now answer the question - cords. Am I the only one that remembers this from elementary school?

I don't even know what cordouroy pants are! :eek:

[Battlefront.com]

The Commissar asked:

I don't even know what cordouroy pants are!

Trust me on this... you do not want to know! This was a 1970s era fashion mistake. Kids appear to have been the main victims here. I also was exposed to the horror of snow and cordouroy during recess at school. Man, was it uncomfortable for the rest of the school day

As for melting snow out in the open... major fluctuations depending on far too many factors for my poor brain to even comprehend. What I will say is that there is a subtle "compaction" or "settling" of new snow over time, which I think is aided by direct sunlight. I mean, when I hear that we have had 180 inches of snow at a certain point, and there are only 24 sitting on the ground, the stuff had to undergo some sort of change!

Oh, BTW... changing temps screws up things more than just dirt road surfaces. I had a couple of trees down for Spring firewood which were sitting on about 6 inches of snow at the time. We got some more snow and then a quick thaw with rain for a couple of days (crazy winter...), then more snow and sub zero (Faranheit) temps at night with sub freezing temps during the day. Although these logs were just below a small layer of light snow, they were frozen hard into the ground. I had to hook them up and give them a big 90 horsepower tug to get them out. I imagine that many a gun crew had to do this to free up their artillery pieces and transport!! Tracked vehicles can handle this OK though.

Steve

Steve

[Michael Dorosh]

I have some neat pictures of Calgary Highlanders pulling stumps with their universal carriers in England; I guess Canadian and British infantry were kind of lucky to have access to tracked vehicles for such jobs where Germans or even American infantrymen were not, for the most part.

The best part about the cords was that if you sat out in the snow, you could watch the steam rising off of them. Pretty neat to a 9 year old!

My parents just had our old home movies from the 70s put onto VHS last year. My God, I had to wonder why all the furniture they bought was orange (went well with the green shag carpeting in their first apartment....oi). I laughed about it at Christmas this year, the only response they could muster was "it was the 70s".

[Grisha]

Originally posted by Michael Dorosh:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr /> The Russians carried out frequent operations by night. The Germans, possibly because they have had heavy casualties to their pre-war personnel specially trained in night fighting, do not seem at present to display so much aptitude for this type of work.

Fact or fiction?

</font>

[Grisha]

I feel I should elaborate a bit on the night combat issue. The Soviets first began night operations during Barbarossa when encircled Soviet units would attempt breakouts as an operation, ie with all their equipment. They were actually successful a number of times. These early operations showed the Soviets that night could be the equalizer they were looking for wrt German superiority in firepower and maneuver. From that point they began to build experience in night operations until by the last period of the war, Soviet were conducting major operations at night, including river crossings. A big reason for the Germans' nightime abilities late in the war can be found on the Russian front, because they had to address this seeming Soviet advantage.

[Brian]

Originally posted by Michael Dorosh:

YOU SNOW GROGS ARE GIVING ME A MAJOR PAIN!!!

(Guys, I'm from Canada, so yeah, I know the freezing point of water is zero Celsius...)

Mmmm, I seem to remember from high school physics that curiously, water doesn't actually freeze at zero degrees centigrade. Something about latent heat or something...

[Michael Dorosh]

dbl

[ February 03, 2002, 05:22 AM: Message edited by: Michael Dorosh ]

[Michael Dorosh]

Originally posted by Grisha:

I feel I should elaborate a bit on the night combat issue. The Soviets first began night operations during Barbarossa when encircled Soviet units would attempt breakouts as an operation, ie with all their equipment. They were actually successful a number of times. These early operations showed the Soviets that night could be the equalizer they were looking for wrt German superiority in firepower and maneuver. From that point they began to build experience in night operations until by the last period of the war, Soviet were conducting major operations at night, including river crossings. A big reason for the Germans' nightime abilities late in the war can be found on the Russian front, because they had to address this seeming Soviet advantage.

How was the scale of issue of illumination? I have a gut feeling (but no other reason to believe) that the Germans had a more lavish scale of illumination devices, from flare pistols to illumination rounds fired by 81 mm mortar, etc. Any idea?

The inelegancies of night combat in CMBO might make scenario designers shy away from night combat unless certain areas have been at least partially adressed in CMBB - moon phases, cloudiness, gunflashes, headlights on vehicles, etc....A simple morale adjustment could probably do what you seek, all other things being equal, but I wonder if we won't have to wait for the rewrite to see a truly detailed night combat system (and more willingness to create night scenarios?)

[patolino]

Originally posted by Michael Dorosh:

YOU SNOW GROGS ARE GIVING ME A MAJOR PAIN!!!

Snow grogs? Someone of those should explain what are the conditions when snow makes that crunching sound under your feet vs. the conditions when it stays silent. And then ponder on the tactical implications during night attacks

But answer me this, experts all - when you roll around in the snow in cordouroy pants then sit in the sun - what happens? (This was all the rage when I was in Grade IV in school....)

Are corduroy pants made of that textile that is not smooth but has sort of grooves in it? Ghastly things. But anyway, your body gives off heat for one. And even in the winter dark materials will absorb heat from the sunlight. You can actually feel pretty comfortable in moderate cold like -15 to -20 cent if you stay in a spot where the air stays still and keep soaking those bright day rays with dark clothing.

[Grisha]

Originally posted by Michael Dorosh:

How was the scale of issue of illumination? I have a gut feeling (but no other reason to believe) that the Germans had a more lavish scale of illumination devices, from flare pistols to illumination rounds fired by 81 mm mortar, etc. Any idea?

The inelegancies of night combat in CMBO might make scenario designers shy away from night combat unless certain areas have been at least partially adressed in CMBB - moon phases, cloudiness, gunflashes, headlights on vehicles, etc....A simple morale adjustment could probably do what you seek, all other things being equal, but I wonder if we won't have to wait for the rewrite to see a truly detailed night combat system (and more willingness to create night scenarios?)

That I couldn't say, but in the 1st period of the war the Soviets considered the shortage of colored rockets and other signal devices a chief problem wrt command & control. The document states that for these reasons Soviet night operations for at least the 1st period were more tactical in scope.

[ February 03, 2002, 06:45 AM: Message edited by: Grisha ]