Use that Tungsten, you idiot!!

[Sarge Saunders]

Still frustrated with Tungsten usage. But before anyone posts distinctly unhelpful ideas let me first state:

1. I know that CM v1.12 patch makes allied tanks more likely to fire Tunsgten rounds when available.

2. Firing of Tungsten round seems predicated on full, correct ID of target vehicle that cannot be penetrated with normal AP.

3. Everyone and then some has already whined about this before...and yes I did a search.

That being said let me share a specific situation and find out how things really work. This is not to complain to BFC / BTS or anything. It is to better plan for such oddities in the future.

Situation: Light Snow. Veteran M10 TD with 7 Tungsten rounds and 36 AP rounds has previously spotted Panther? roll into gunsights 390 meters away. Panther? orientation is face-on and not hull-down. M10 reaction...pop smoke and roll back to avoid a gunfight. OK says I...this is a scenario which features the M10s specifically to deal with axis Ubertanks (the 57mm AT guns have done a number on enemy mark IVs already). So....I order the M10 back up to face off with the Panther?. This time he obeys and gleefully ricochets 3 AP rounds without firing any Tungsten. Death awaits him before the 4th shot.

Now, I know it is not optimal to face off with a Panther head on. I also know that if the Panther? were IDed properly, the M10 would have likely fired the Tungsten. What I don't get is how many rounds need to bounce the front turret of the Panther for Tungsten to be used regardless of full ID.

BTW, been playing CM for 1 1/2 years now but have never been in a situation that this issue mattered. Normally, in a QB I would buy M36 TDs to take on Panthers....or play scenarios that do not feature LOS blocking light snow....or had this issue work to my favor against allied opponents.

So the question is: Will an allied tank EVER fire Tungsten at an unidentified enemy tank?

-Sarge

[ParaBellum]

Maybe the problem is that Tungsten rounds are actually less effective against highly sloped armour as on the Panther's front glacis.

So, why waste Tungsten when you can't penetrate the armour anyway?

If you hit the turret, normal AP will do the job, if the distance is not too big.

If you hit the front glacis, well, Tugsten won't help you...

And hey, anyone who engages a Panther frontally witch less than a Super Pershing deserves what you got...

[Snake Eyes]

The TacAI use of tungsten has always been a sore subject with me and a lot of others. It was improved somewhat, but crews still don't react reasonably, IMHO. However, Allied crews don't have a problem with popping smoke when they see the big cats.

[Gen-x87H]

I wouldnt even engage a Panther with a Super Pershing head on.

I have seen those go down to Panthers at that kind of range. And the 90mm gun on that thing is squirly. Most of the time it is not even close until after the 3rd or 4th shot.

Panthers gun is usually dead on. I say usually only because I have had instances of it missing also. But 90% of the time that gun is deadly accurate.

Gen

[Gen-x87H]

Why wouldnt they pop smoke when they see a big cat? Allied tanks are not stand off tanks. They are fast.

If you were in an M10 and had a tungsten round or a Smoke round with a Panther coming at you head on from 390 meters. What would you do? Pop the smoke and get the hell out of dodge? Or hope you can somehow penetrate the thing before its shot smacks you silly.

1 shot from the panther is a guarantee penetration on an M10. M10 does not have a guarantee penetration on the Panther. Provided it even connects on the first shot.

I would be getting the hell out of there and trying a flank shot. But that is just me.

Gen

[Michael Emrys]

Originally posted by Gen-x87H:

I wouldnt even engage a Panther with a Super Pershing head on.

I have seen those go down to Panthers at that kind of range. And the 90mm gun on that thing is squirly. Most of the time it is not even close until after the 3rd or 4th shot.

Panthers gun is usually dead on. I say usually only because I have had instances of it missing also. But 90% of the time that gun is deadly accurate.

The only time I ever used Pershings, the Germans had a Panther in their force mix, and he came gunning for the Shermans the pair of Pershings were backing up. I popped the Pershings out of cover and the Panther fired a shot which ricocheted. Then the Pershing with his first shot nailed that Panther right through the glacis. I loved it!

Michael

[Sarge Saunders]

Originally posted by ParaBellum:

Maybe the problem is that Tungsten rounds are actually less effective against highly sloped armour as on the Panther's front glacis.

This is true to be sure. But I still wonder about my original question: "Will an allied tank EVER fire Tungsten at an unidentified enemy tank even after a ricochet?"

Besides...the TC ought to aim for that turret anyway...

-Sarge

[ June 13, 2002, 12:34 PM: Message edited by: Sarge Saunders ]

[Sarge Saunders]

Originally posted by ParaBellum:

And hey, anyone who engages a Panther frontally witch less than a Super Pershing deserves what you got...

I wish it weren't so but the M10 is on defense and they are coming to me. My other M10 has a side shot on the same Panther so things will be quite different for that engagement.

That's part of the reason I never noticed this issue before. Never in a situation that called for a frontal engagement of a Panther by an M10.

-Sarge

[ June 13, 2002, 12:37 PM: Message edited by: Sarge Saunders ]

[Snake Eyes]

Originally posted by Gen-x87H:

Why wouldnt they pop smoke when they see a big cat? ...What would you do? Pop the smoke and get the hell out of dodge...Gen

I think that depends upon crew experience. Shermans and TD's did take on Panthers and win.

I wanted to see just how effective the much maligned Sherman could be if equipped soley with tungsten; a what if scenario. An ME, each side having a company of infantry, HT's, AC's, and a platoon of tanks (four Panthers vs five Shermans). After several replays the results showed that given the improved penetration of the tungsten round, Shermans could easily take on the Panthers. What mattered most was who got off the first shot.

[ParaBellum]

Originally posted by Sarge Saunders:

This is true to be sure. But I still wonder about my original question: "Will an allied tank EVER fire Tungsten at an unidentified enemy tank even after a ricochet?"

-Sarge

Just did a quick test.

Seven regular M10s against seven regular Panthers.

Distance is around 800 meters, clear LOS.

Three of the seven M10s decided to instantly use Tungsten rounds on the Panther(?)s, even with their first shot.

So yes, allied tanks use Tungsten rounds at unindentified enemy tanks.

Since I setup the test in May '45 all of the M10s had 5-8 Tungsten rounds, quite a lot of them.

The quantity of Tungsten rounds surely influences the crew's decision to use them on unindentified tanks.

[Sarge Saunders]

Originally posted by Snake Eyes:

I wanted to see just how effective the much maligned Sherman could be if equipped soley with tungsten; a what if scenario.....After several replays the results showed that given the improved penetration of the tungsten round, Shermans could easily take on the Panthers.

Aha! I knew someone would be along with a test result. Did the Sherman (76) Tungsten rounds penetrate the front upper hull? The turret? at what range?

[Sarge Saunders]

Originally posted by ParaBellum:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Sarge Saunders:

This is true to be sure. But I still wonder about my original question: "Will an allied tank EVER fire Tungsten at an unidentified enemy tank even after a ricochet?"

-Sarge

Just did a quick test.

Seven regular M10s against seven regular Panthers.

Distance is around 800 meters, clear LOS.

Three of the seven M10s decided to instantly use Tungsten rounds on the Panther(?)s, even with their first shot.

So yes, allied tanks use Tungsten rounds at unindentified enemy tanks.

Since I setup the test in May '45 all of the M10s had 5-8 Tungsten rounds, quite a lot of them.

The quantity of Tungsten rounds surely influences the crew's decision to use them on unindentified tanks.</font>

[Snake Eyes]

Originally posted by Sarge Saunders:

Aha! I knew someone would be along with a test result. Did the Sherman (76) Tungsten rounds penetrate the front upper hull? The turret? at what range?

Actually this wasn't a test, it was a scenario that I created some time ago and PBEM'd several times. IIRC typical range varied from 200-500 and penetrations were made on all Panther aspects. Some T rounds did ricochet, but most hits penetrated.

Some time after these games I made a test of tungsten loaded Shermans vs KT's at about 1000m. Needless to say, the Allies ended up with a lot of scrap metal.

[ June 13, 2002, 03:54 PM: Message edited by: Snake Eyes ]

[Sarge Saunders]

Originally posted by Snake Eyes:

Some time after these games a made a test of tungsten loaded Shermans vs KT's at about 1000m. Needless to say, the Allies ended up with a lot of scrap metal.

Hehe, I'll bet they did! :eek:

[ParaBellum]

Originally posted by Sarge Saunders:

Where did you pentrate the Panthers?

-Sarge

All of the shots ricocheted off the frontal glacis. Tungsten or not.

Later some penetrated the front turret, knocking out two Panthers.

After two minutes we had seven dead M10s and two dead Panthers...

[ June 13, 2002, 02:21 PM: Message edited by: ParaBellum ]

[Sarge Saunders]

Originally posted by ParaBellum:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Sarge Saunders:

Where did you pentrate the Panthers?

-Sarge

All of the shots ricocheted off the frontal glacis. Tungsten or not.

Later some penetrated the front turret, knocking out two Panthers.

After two minutes we had seven dead M10s and two dead Panthers...</font>

[zukkov]

what about high velocity armor piercing rounds or hi-vap? i remember playing some armor miniature games with those types of rounds being available. the americans had them for their 76 and 90 mmm guns, usually given only to the td's. i seem to recall at short range they could penetrate a king tiger easily. why aren't those used in CM??

[YankeeDog]

Originally posted by zukkov:

what about high velocity armor piercing rounds or hi-vap? i remember playing some armor miniature games with those types of rounds being available. the americans had them for their 76 and 90 mmm guns, usually given only to the td's. i seem to recall at short range they could penetrate a king tiger easily. why aren't those used in CM??

HVAP is tungsten. To quote from the manual:

""t" - Tungsten Core

Known by the Americans as HVAP (Hyper Velocity Armoor Piercing), by the Germans as PzGr40 (Panzergranate 40), and by the British as APCR (Armor Piercing Composite Rigid), APDS (Armor Piercing Discarding Sabot), and even SVDS (Super Velocity Discarding Sabot). This Type of projectile is lighter than a standard AP round and can be fired at a higher muzzle velocity...."

(CM manual, p.67)

[JasonC]

zukkov - that is what tungsten is, HVAP. It trades a higher velocity for a smaller core out of the same gun, and then penetrates better because of three advantages: the shell is moving faster, its smaller front surface area concentrates its energy in a smaller spot, and the harder metal cuts armor better.

The US 76mm will penetrate the Panther lower front hull at essentially any range. With ordinary AP it will penetrate the turret front under 200-250 meters. At longer ranges ordinary AP hits to the turret will give "shell broke up" results - which is the shatter gap (shell has enough energy to penetrate but isn't strong enough to hold together long enough to do so). Ordinary AP will not get through the upper front hull regardless of range.

Tungsten fails against the upper front hull as well, because highly sloped armor is where HVAP is least effective. It improves the outcome only against the turret front, allowing penetrations at essentially any range, instead of needing nearly point blank range. Of course any side or rear hit will KO the Panther too.

At most CM ranges, the plain AP is too far away to get into the turret. If the target is fully exposed, lower hull hits are still possible, but those are rare, around 1/6 of all hits. The Panther will normally get you first if that is all you can hit. And if the Panther is hull down, you can't hit that plate at all, and so without tungsten you always lose frontal duels.

With tungsten (and ID) such duels are still gambles, because (1) he might hit you first or (2) your first hits might be to the upper hull.

Historically both M-10s and M-18s won a substantial number of such duels, particularly when the range was short, allowing even ordinary AP to get through the turret front. Two occasions with well documented AARs were Panzer Lehr's July counterattack in the American sector in Normandy, and the Panzer brigades counterattacks against Patton's leading armor east of Nancy in September. The TDs outscored Panthers heavily on both occasions, probably due to their sighting edge. The Panthers were usually buttoned (due to entering the US defended zone, past artillery and small arms), and in the second case fog was common as well.

You can see a similar effect in CM, not from sighting which is arguably too easy for either side in CM, but from its modeling of turret speeds. If the TDs jump the Panthers, they can often get off first shots while the Panthers are still turning their turrets.

[-Havermeyer-]

An oft frequent lament. I'm not certain they countenance the armor slope prior to firing the T do they?

Sick example: 7 (SEVEN) T shots BOUNCED off a Jagdpanther in a certain PBEM during which expletives poured from my mouth like spittle from Ozzie's.

I had previously been yelling: "USE YOUR FREAKING TUNGSTEN YOU TURD MEN!!!! AAAAAAGGGGHHHH!!!!!"

[Sarge Saunders]

Originally posted by JasonC:

At longer ranges ordinary AP hits to the turret will give "shell broke up" results - which is the shatter gap (shell has enough energy to penetrate but isn't strong enough to hold together long enough to do so).

This is what I experienced which prompted the thread. Why the heck not shoot Tungsten in those cases?

To recap:

No ID?...fine, shoot AP first.

Shell broke up?...switch to tungsten you idiot!

Alas...2 dead M10s and 1 happy Panther.

-Sarge

[ June 13, 2002, 06:05 PM: Message edited by: Sarge Saunders ]

[Wolfe]

IIRC, the use of tungsten in CMBO comes down to how many tungsten shells you have vs. how many AP are left. If you've got very little tungsten or lots of AP or both, the liklihood of getting a tungsten round is reduced. Unfortunately even after the tweaking that was done, it's still a prob with the game. I hope it's been tweaked further for CMBB.

I personally like Jeff Heidman's suggestion: if the enemy tank is IDed (even mistakenly) as a Tiger/Panther or heavier, always use the special rounds regardless of their scarcity. This would simulate a crew screaming the dreaded word "Tiger!" and doing their best to kill the menace before they themselves die. When facing a tough heavy tank a crew isn't going to worry about whether an AP shell *might* do the job; they're more likely than not going to grab the biggest, baddest ammo they have to try to kill the beast.

Or, in CM terms, if the chance is 'OK' or worse and the special round takes the chance up one level (e.g. from OK to Good), then use the special round. If not, stick with AP or withdraw (or both). This may induce units to waste special rounds, but I'd rather see them wasted than not used.

I think it'll be interesting to see how the new tank morale in CMBB plays into this equation.

I also hope to see less of infantry support tanks dueling with heavy tanks (e.g. Churchill vs. Panthers or Sherman-105 vs. PzIV) as well as light recon vs. thin-skinned TDs (Greyhound/Stuart vs Marder/Nashorn). Though that kind of SOP may have to wait for the engine re-write.

- Chris

[ June 13, 2002, 06:43 PM: Message edited by: Wolfe ]

[Sarge Saunders]

Originally posted by Wolfe:

IIRC, the use of tungsten in CMBO comes down to how many tungsten shells you have vs. how many AP are left.....Unfortunately even after the tweaking that was done, it's still a prob with the game.....if the enemy tank is IDed (even mistakenly) as a Tiger/Panther or heavier, always use the special rounds regardless of their scarcity......they're more likely than not going to grab the biggest, baddest ammo they have to try to kill the beast.

Yeah, I posted the number of shells in my original post. 7 "T" rounds were available.

I agree about your (and Jeff H's) idea. I don't mind firing AP first at an unidentified target, but after that does no good, it is time to switch to tungsten. Not much good saving those rounds if your TD gets brewed up.

-Sarge

[zukkov]

thanks for clarifying the tungsten/hvap question for me. guess ya'll figured out i haven't exactly read the manuel cover to cover. lol..

one question though. weren't there such rounds for the 90 mm gun?

[Auggy]

The Pershings have Tungstun rounds