Taking out AT Pillboxes

[StugIII]

I'm in a situation where my opponent has an AT pillbox about 800m from me. The terrain is fairly open without alot of hills so he has a great field of fire and getting rid of this is a top priority.

Without me giving away my force composition, I'm looking for the best tactics for destroying this pillbox.

[Cpl Carrot]

I think everyone will tell you that SMOKE, SMOKE, and SMOKE some more. With any luck it will get cancer and die. Don't concentrate purely on it though, there is going to be other surprises.

[Pow Pow]

The key is not the pillbox but any enemy forces around the pillbox. if you can advance around the flank of the pillbox unopposed then you're set. Just drop a lot of smoke from your arty. do you have arty? because your gonna need it if that pillbox is a whole 800m off. Then again, you can always mass the fire from your tanks and hope that you get lucky and punch a round through the firing slit. but i recommend that you smoke the hell out of it and recon any enemy forces that are protecting its flanks.

[JasonC]

"I'm in a situation where my opponent has an AT pillbox about 800m from me. The terrain is fairly open without alot of hills so he has a great field of fire and getting rid of this is a top priority.

Without me giving away my force composition, I'm looking for the best tactics for destroying this pillbox."

Use tanks, but distract the pillbox with an infantry target first if possible. And use more than one tank, preferably well seperated, so the gun in the box will have to rotate from one to the other if it kills a first one. That will give the second time to shoot into it.

Pillboxes with AT guns are quite dangerous to tanks, but tanks can take them out, with shells fired at their firing slits. You need numbers and it is always a gamble, because you can easily lose 2-3 tanks sent, and losing 1 is "par for the course".

The strength of the box is that it is effectively invunerable to artillery and mortar fire, which are the weapons types that can hit it without reply.

When close enough, attacking the box from outside its covered arc - meaning from sides or rear - can also work. The killing weapon in that case can be bazookas (from ~100 yards), or flamethrowers or demo charges (from ~30 yards and ~10 yards respectively). Bazookas are usually the most practical of those. Panzerschrecks the same way, and panzerfausts will also do it if close enough (under half the listed range of the faust type).

But the infantry, close-attack methods require getting very close, and tackling it from the sides. In front, they can still do it in principle, but they have no real cover if they can see its front, and the gun is dangerous to them.

From range, only tanks will do it. As others mentioned, smoke can be used as a temporary measure - from on-map mortars or off-map, typically - to get by the gun into some other area of dead ground. But if there isn't any dead ground, and it or supports are going to shoot up infantry before they can get close, then tanks are the only answer.

When tackling them with tanks, you want to advance from out of LOS to a hull-down position that can see the front of the pillbox, with a target line set to the pillbox at the start of the move.

If possible, you want to do so from a direction the gun is not currently facing, to use the time it takes the gun to rotate, to get in the first shot. Distracting the gun with infantry works best for this. As in, an infantry squad or two runs across its view on the left, ending in cover but drawing fire. Then, tank pops into LOS on the right.

The tank will usually not get the pillbox until several rounds have been fired. It is "zeroing in", on the small target of the firing slit. This is dangerous, because the gun will rotate to reply at the tank while the misses are occurring. Being "hull down" (usually, "hunt" forward from the back side of a hill, and the tank will stop as soon as the target comes into view, with some of the hill masking the hull of the tank. Behind a stone wall also works) minimizes the risk of the first 1-2 shots killing you back.

And because each shot is not very likely to find the slit, more than one tank shooting is usually essential. If you are really clever with the timing, you can also use the distraction trick and combined it with seperated angles from the shooting tanks, so the gun has to rotate back again if it manages to kill one of the shooting tanks. As in, infantry across left, then a paused hunting tank on the right, then a double-paused hunting tank over on the left again.

The usual outcome of it all, the cost you can expect, is one dead tank and one dead pillbox, killed by the 2nd or 3rd shooter. There is a danger of several dead tanks and no dead pillbox. It is a risky thing. The "sure" thing is infantry close from the sides, but at 800m you do not at present have that option.

I hope this helps, and good luck.

[StugIII]

Thanks All. I'll try incorporating the suggestions and then cross my fingers. Now, if my opponent would just send the file back...

[ 05-24-2001: Message edited by: StugIII ]

[CombinedArms]

JasonC's suggestions for tank attack are really good and specific--and include a few intriguing wrinkles I'd never thought about--but it might be worth further reinforcing that with the new version (1.12) it's really hard to kill pillboxes with tank fire. Moreover, all pillboxes are Axis and most Allied tanks can be killed frontally with the 75mm guns typically in pillboxes. 88s are even deadlier.

To illustrate how hard they are to take out frontally, in one scenario I attacked a 75mm pillbox with 3 Jumbos that fired at it continously for about 3 rounds (3 minutes) before they finally killed it. The Jumbos got up very close and were luckily able to shrug off a lot of hits without being lost, but it took forever to zero in on that slit. Normally you don't have 3 Jumbos--and if they'd been regular Shermans each would have died many times.

So, perhaps the moral to this story is that

there's a trade-off to consider with pillboxes. I would tend to smoke 'em and flank 'em if at all possible, since they are readily killed from behind. The cost of this however, is real--if the pillbox is well placed, it can impose a lot of delay--since you need to kill the pillbox's flank defenses, and chew up a lot of your arty through smoke. Even using terrain blockage as much as possible usually isn't enough. You need smoke.

Direct fire from tanks is the other option--faster but risky. If you have any heavy tanks (Jumbos, Churchill VIIIs, Pershings) they should get the nod. I'd go with one heavy tank over 3 mediums. If only Allies had Panthers, this would be a much easier challenge.

[Agua]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by CombinedArms:

JasonC's suggestions for tank attack are really good and specific--and include a few intriguing wrinkles I'd never thought about--but it might be worth further reinforcing that with the new version (1.12) it's really hard to kill pillboxes with tank fire. Moreover, all pillboxes are Axis and most Allied tanks can be killed frontally with the 75mm guns typically in pillboxes. 88s are even deadlier.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yeah, Jason's comments always make it into my personal "player's guide" and he is, as always, right again; with infantry 800m away and unknown enemy units in between, it's too much potentially deadly ground to cover with smoke (unless he's got a ton of 81mm FO's). About his only choice is to try to take 'em out with tanks. I agree though, if you're using any US tank lighter than a jumbo, losing 1 tank out of three sounds like the rare exception rather than the rule.

[StugIII]

I wish I could tell you more about my force composition in that sector but my opponent my read this. Let's just say this is going to be VERY difficult. I have less than ideal units for this task. :mad:

Thanks JasonC for the insight.

[WWB]

We have forgotten about the easiest way to render pillboxes ineffective: smoke.

They do have one major weakness: immobility and a limited firing arc. Which means that onboard units (mortars, 75mm+ armed vehicles) can easily blind it, much less offboard smoke.

WWB

[Terence]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by wwb_99:

We have forgotten about the easiest way to render pillboxes ineffective: smoke.

They do have one major weakness: immobility and a limited firing arc. Which means that onboard units (mortars, 75mm+ armed vehicles) can easily blind it, much less offboard smoke.

WWB<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Oh sure, smoke. That's always a good answer.

I'd like to point out that a canny opponent will not, if he can help it, hang a pillbox out there by itself.

It can usually handle threats from the front, but as its vulnerable from the sides, you can expect a smart player to protect it from flanking attempts with a) other pillboxes mines c) barbed wire d) machine gun nests and dug in infantry.

So you might spend a couple turns sneaking a platoon around behind the blinded by smoke pillbox only to find it cut to pieces in an ambush and standing on some anti personnel mines.

Also, (and ive done this once or twice) if you have a trp, put in where you think someone might try to flank your pillbox or take cover from it.

That way, if they are sneaking along or hiding, you can still drop high explosive on their heads. Armor will not be affected much, but softskin or open topped vehicles have trouble with this.

Also, consider this: the pillbox is easily spotted, but the AT gun dug in, in woods less so. Imagine this scenario: You have, say, 4 Shermans and some infantry. You spot the pillbox and lose two tanks taking it out.

But that leaves 2 tanks still in order and most of your men. So forward you plunge, only to realize that the pillbox was an elaborate ruse.

Oh sure, it was real enough and would have shot you dead with half a chance, but you spent so much time thinking about how to take it out that you forgot to scout forward with infantry and the hidden 88 in the woods drilled both your remaining Shermans when you moved out to advance.

Now, you are really up **** creek. Even if you nail the 88 with artillery, you still have to pry the Germans out of those woods and have no tanks to do it with.

Just because that pillbox is all you see, doesn't mean its all your opponent has.

Good luck.

[Cos]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by StugIII:

I'm in a situation where my opponent has an AT pillbox about 800m from me. The terrain is fairly open without alot of hills so he has a great field of fire and getting rid of this is a top priority.

Without me giving away my force composition, I'm looking for the best tactics for destroying this pillbox.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Are there pockets of trees on the map? Consider smoking the gaps between the trees and then advancing from one pocket to the next to give some cover.

Also what type of battle is this? If you're the attacker and the Victory Flags are deep into his area then as others have mentioned the pillbox is one element of his kill zone and he wants to channel your forces into an area he has designed to cut you up. If it's and ME, then most likey it's being used as a stand off weapon to cover the VF to keep you away from them.

[Olle Petersson]

You say there are lots of hills...

Those are your best cover! Put a hill between your attacking force and the defending bunker. No problemo!

Another option is to attack it frontally with a barrage of direct fired HE. Just line up at least half a dozen of your tanks and other guns simultaneously within LOS to the pillbox and start shooting...

It will probably cost you a tank or two, but that's affordable.

Cheers

Olle

[JasonC]

"You say there are lots of hills"

No, he said the terrain is fairly open -without- a lot of hills.

As for smoking them, several have mentioned that, but it is really a temporary measure. To neutralize the box for 1-3 minutes, so you can rush by some spot it can see into dead ground, that can work. But with long, 800 meter, open fields of fire, there is no way smoke is going to last long enough to do the job. A whole module of artillery will only smoke it for a few minutes, and using it up for that is like giving the enemy 1-2 platoons of infantry.

The fellow also said it looked hard with the forces he had. Well, if arty and infantry are it, then you are going to get shot up some. Use dead ground, temporary smoke from on-map mortars, and arty on its flank supports and infantry protection. But expect it to be a tough nut. And keep your zooks/schrecks as safe as you can and don't waste their ammo on infantry, because you will need them when you get close.

[Skipper]

From 800m away, that bunker will be nearly impossible to KO with tanks (IMHO). Look for a flanking passage. It may have a short gap or two, that your infantry can cross under fire. If you can't go around it, stop the attack and hope for the draw.

[StugIII]

To those of you following my dilema/drama with this pillbox here's the conclusion: The box was on the far flank of the map but was between a large number of my forces and the VF. I decided on the distraction tactic and sent a squad running and screamimg in the direction opposite the VF. As the box tracked and fired on the sacrifical squad, 8 other squads w/support teams went across the other way and the gun could not rotate fast enough. The 8+ squads are now on their merry way towards the VF while the box is trying to destroy the sacrifice squad.

Thanks JasonC for the suggestion.

[Warmaker]

Sucks to be that squad if it's a German 75mm Bunker. I pity that squad if it's an 88mm.

As far as using tanks to destroy concrete bunkers I think using the really HV guns work best i.e. 17-pdr./76mm & 90mm guns. Punch through those things if you can hit, but I'm not certain if they use your precious tungsten or not.

The idea of using the TRPs and placing them at expected dead zones/hideouts from your pillboxes is quite a nice one, especially if you've got mortars and other arty on standby. VERY NASTY case of "picking your poison," especially if you're using 150mm/155mm artillery. Big guns never tire!

[Gyrene]

Has anyone used sharpshooters against pillboxes? I've had some success with them taking out field guns, but never really tried against pillboxes...

An experiment is in order..

Gyrene

[Gyrene]

I ran a test of all the grades of sharpshooters versus several types of concrete pillboxes and here are the results:

Sharpshooters are absolutely useless against any kind of pillbox. They will not target them on their own, forcing you to hand target, thus giving them away. Guess who wins that duel?

I even moved one of my sharpshooters directly in front of a pillbox at ranges from 0m to 3m and it would not fire at all at those ranges, but neither would the pillbox, any farther and the shooter was toast.

There were over 10 shots fired at the pillboxes' slits and not a single German casualty was generated, perhaps more shots might have had some results, but the shooters were usually soon dead after that.

I had some success in giving sneak-shoot-run commands, being able to get of 3 or 4 shots with one of the sharpshooters that way.

Too bad, it would be nice to use them that way.

Gyrene

[StugIII]

Gyrene,

Could you give me more information on your use of sharpshooters. When I first got the game I tried to use them as defensive snipers but never really had much success. Maybe start a thread on Sharpshooter tactics if you have the time or desire. I'd be interested.

[Redwolf]

I second the remark about the other units that may work in combination with the pillbox.

I had a PBEM opponent with a wooden MG bunker, covering a valley that my infantry had to sneak through (except it couldn't then). It was so openly placed that I though my opponent made a bad placement.

Only to find out that all vehicles approach routes into LOS of the bunker were covered by two Pak43. He got about 2/3 of his victory points from that situation.

[Stalin's Organ]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Skipper:

From 800m away, that bunker will be nearly impossible to KO with tanks (IMHO). <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Nope - tanks can kill any bunker they can hit - range just makes the possibility of a hit less, as with any target.

I've lost bunkers to Sherman 75's at up to a Km in a scenario - the bunkers were MG, so the Sherman just sat out there for 2-3 turns until it got the hit. No problems at all.

Of course the Sherman that tried that with the 88mm bunker didn't get to see if he could get a hit in 2-3 turns!!

[Gyrene]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR> Gyrene,

Could you give me more information on your use of sharpshooters. When I first got the game I tried to use them as defensive snipers but never really had much success. Maybe start a thread on Sharpshooter tactics if you have the time or desire. I'd be interested. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

StugIII, have you read the "Are Snipers good for anything?" thread? There are some good hints there.

The key to using sharpshooters well is to buy the best you can afford, sneak him up to a position with good LOS of your opponent's are a somewhere in the range of 300-600 meters away and leave him alone.

If you never give your sharpshooters "target" orders odds are excellent that he will not be spotted, but he will give himself away if you give him orders to shoot.

Sharpshooters tend to get bored (it seems) and will start to target infantry if there are no other better targets around, wasting valuable ammo. The thing to do is to "Hide" the sharpshooter until something better turns up, then unhide the him and let him do his job.

If you can sneak a sharpshooter within range of field guns he stands a very good chance of breaking or outright eliminating the gun without drawing any fire in return.

The best places to place sharpshooters are wooded hills (Place him in the military crest, just below the actual crest of the hill) with commanding views of likely tank paths or gun emplacements. Remember that sharpshooters are absolutely useless against pillboxes, so don't bother with them.

Sharpshooters can also successfully work out of brush or rough areas, which has the added benefit of drawing much less artillery fire from frazzled opponents trying to kill that pesky sniper than wooded areas.

Placing sharpshooters in isolated large buildings (Unless its a city map) is begging to have your sharpshooter die a death by colapsing timber; rubble, on the other hand, is the best cover for infantry in CM and makes a good base to work from.

Setup a QB against the AI with lots of enemy infantry, some armor, a spotter or two and some field guns, against just a handful of sharpshooters in mixed terrain and practice your sharpshooter sneaking skills. This kind of practice is also great for AT teams, so add some to the mix, and see how many tanks you can button up/shock with you sharpshooters or kill with your AT teams, and how many guns and spotters you can incapacitate before the enemy infantry gets you.

PIATs are the stealthiest AT teams by far, in case you are wondering, you can get off several shots at nearby tanks without being spotted.

Hope any of this helps.

Gyrene

[joeski]

Just had an AT Pillbox taken out in 3 turns. My opponent parked a churchill about 500/600meters out and just traded shots. The pillbox couldn't hurt it.

[Terence]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by joeski:

Just had an AT Pillbox taken out in 3 turns. My opponent parked a churchill about 500/600meters out and just traded shots. The pillbox couldn't hurt it.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Hmm. Was it a 75mm pillbox?

[joeski]

Yep a 75mm pillbox. Bad buy probally. Hindsight is 20/20. When the churchill appeared my opponent just sat there. I asked him what he was doing and he said that thing can't hurt my front armor but if I reverse to get away I'm going to have to turn at some point. Bad part was I snuck a Hetzer over to get a side shot on the church and the hetzer got popped too. That was a bad turn for me.