GE INF getting spanked in towns. SMG squads.

[Maxx]

Been playing lots of multiplayer urban (factory) maps, and the one glaring weakness we have found is that the Germans have no SMG squads available until Feb '44. In comparison, the Ruskies get full SMG squads in '42. This makes for a huge imbalance imho. My red boys routinely clobber the hell out of the Germans in any kind of close combat. The only 'fix' is for the GE player to take Finnish units, which have SMG squads much earlier. Am I missing something? I find it difficult to believe the Germans didnt have SMG assault groups in Stalingrad from Sept '42 on. Any input would be appreciated.

[Dar]

Have you tried Pionier units? From what I recall, only the squad leader and assistant squad leaders had machine-pistols in your run-of-the-mill German infantry squads.

[Maxx]

Dar: yes. Pioneer units have either 6 rifles and a SMG, or 5 rifles, a SMG and a LMG. Still very weak at < 100 meters.

[Bone_Vulture]

If we leave possible historical inaccuracies, out of this, I might recommend some anti-SMG squad tactics for your current troops.

SMG squads lose firepower dramatically beyond 50 meters. Shoot the squads with your rifle troops and MG's beyond this range. The SMG squads will either become pinned, or lose their ammo firing back.Move your platoons one squad at a time, to avoid letting to whole force become ambushed simultaneously; the standing squads may stand ready to offer fire support, if the moving squad is ambushed.

[Andrew H.]

Also, remember that you can use the new feature of "area fire" to throw grenade bundles and demo charges within about 30 meters.

Don't stand too close...

[Maxx]

Bone: Thanks for the response. Yes, you are quite right. That would be textbook tactics vs. SMG squads, where LOS is available from say 80 meters and beyond. But on the maps we are playing (and addicted to ), most of the fighting occurs inside factories, where contact is made between 10 and 80 meters. I wish I had some screenshots here to illustrate.. the assaulting GE INF is virtually annihilated in any kind of static firefight within this range.

[Stormin Norman]

Now you see why Germans developed and brought all those assualt guns to the party.

[Maxx]

Originally posted by Stormin Norman:

Now you see why Germans developed and brought all those assualt guns to the party.

As a side note, we have seen a few (very few) GE units who have 1 or 2 PPSh's equipped. This dramatically helps overall firepower. Do they pick these up during the battle? Or is it a randomly generated thing at the QB start?

[Mikser]

It seems to be totally random, eg. some units even when purchased in the scenario editor do get some.

[Maxx]

Can any grogs comment here? Doesn't MP40 stand for 'machine pistol 1940'? MP44 is 'machine pistol 1944'? Wasn't 6th army the best equipped formation in the Wehrmacht in 1942? Didn't Paulus use 'assault groups' in Stalingrad equipped with primarily SMG squads?

I feel strongly this should be addressed by BTS. As it stands now, if I am allowed to purchase my units as the Soviets, and the terrain is in factories, and the time period is 1942-1943, I can almost guarantee the Germans are gonna be wiped out in any firefights where the numbers are are close to 2:1 in the germans favor.

[White Phosphorus]

I thought those assault squads where actually flamer heavy.

I liked the way pioneer squads always had a flamer in the squad in Steel Panthers.

[xerxes]

Pioneers in factories really do pretty well. Satchel charges and FTs are made for close range factory fighting.

[Nippy]

Doesn't MP40 stand for 'machine pistol 1940'? MP44 is 'machine pistol 1944'?

Yes and no. the MP40 was a Machine Pistol, but the MP44's full name was the "Sturm-Gewer 44" In German Sturm=Assault and Gewer=Rifle.

(This Grogy moment brought to you by Nippy, the other wacky Battalion Commander.)

[Andrew H.]

IIRC, the MP44 name was designed in part to hide the gun from Hitler, who didn't like the idea of assault rifles; he changed his mind after the troops liked it, and the gun was later renamed.

[Robohn]

I think the Russian SMG units are very powerful in close combat...but their ammo runs out fast. They have weaknesses that can be exploited just like any other unit.

[Tarquelne]

Something reapeated in the StuGs-are-awesome threads fairly often is that CMBB's point system doesn't have any situational modifiers. A 21 point SMG squad is 21 points in a factory, and 21 points on the steppe.

In historical scenarios this doesn't matter, but for QB's you really may just have to give the Germans extra points. Personally, I'd rather toss the Germans some extra points and so let them have an extra assault gun, engineer platoon, or some such than work up unit-by-unit rules are (heaven forbid!) prevent the Russian player from using SMG squads.

[Cpt.Kloss]

Originally posted by Tarqulene:

Something reapeated in the StuGs-are-awesome threads fairly often is that CMBB's point system doesn't have any situational modifiers. A 21 point SMG squad is 21 points in a factory, and 21 points on the steppe.

In historical scenarios this doesn't matter, but for QB's you really may just have to give the Germans extra points. Personally, I'd rather toss the Germans some extra points and so let them have an extra assault gun, engineer platoon, or some such than work up unit-by-unit rules are (heaven forbid!) prevent the Russian player from using SMG squads.

------------------------------------------------

It's somethink like "prevent Germans using Panther until SU100 and IS2 are available"

or "prevent Germans using aircraft in 1941 until some decent (and without rarity extra cost) AA is available for Russians." Or prevent Germans using assault gun (StuG) supporting infantry and able to destroy any russian tank - for a price lower than 100 points..and so on

Play this scenario twice switching sides and compare results to declare winner.

SMG squads a problem? use area fire and blow whole buildings with your fine engineers! Then assault with flamethrowers...

[Snarker]

Originally posted by Andrew Hedges:

IIRC, the MP44 name was designed in part to hide the gun from Hitler, who didn't like the idea of assault rifles; he changed his mind after the troops liked it, and the gun was later renamed.

You recall correctly. Hitler really liked mucking the works up...

[Nippy]

Originally posted by Snarker:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Andrew Hedges:

IIRC, the MP44 name was designed in part to hide the gun from Hitler, who didn't like the idea of assault rifles; he changed his mind after the troops liked it, and the gun was later renamed.

You recall correctly. Hitler really liked mucking the works up...</font>

[Battlefront.com]

The Germans learned, the hard way, that they needed more automatic firepower at the squad level for city fighting. The battle that really hammered this point home was Stalingrad. The Germans initially resisted having SMG only troops because they are generally useless in anything BUT dense terrain (deep forest and dense urban). Their initial reaction was to develop heavier assault artillery and to avoid attacking urban centers. Later they developed specialized "street fighting" units, generally called a "Sturmkompanie".

The Germans also started kicking what became the MP43/MP44/StG44 programe into high gear. The first prototypes were available early 1943 and initial tests were very favorable. They did not pack the massive ammo punch of the PPSh (an asset in street fighting), but they were multi-functional which was a MASSIVE improvement over the SMG. Production delays and other problems caused the gun to not see significant employment until mid/late 1944. And nowhere NEAR the numbers it was supposed to be deployed in. By 1945 all infantry formations were supposed to be exclusively armed with the gun, but of course that never happened.

In the mean time, SMGs were in fact consolodated into SMG only units. These units, however, did not see combat until 1944. First up were the Sperr Division pattern, which later turned into the Volksgrenadier Division pattern. Jäger and Gebirgsjäger units were also outfitted with loads of SMGs.

This is just another example of a realistic matchup which one side is just going to have to deal with just like the real forces did in the war.

And for those of you crying about how bad it is being Germans in dense terrain vs. Soviet SMGs... think of the poor bastard German allies (excepting Finns).

Like Cpt.Kloss said, restricting or otherwise screwing around with reality in order to "balance" things is the wrong approach. If you want to play these battles, try playing with the AI selecting the forces for both sides. That should even things out quite a bit because the AI is unlikely to stock up on unrealistic amounts of SMG troops.

Steve

[Maxx]

Thanks for the info Steve. Computer generated forces it is.

[Gary T]

Jäger and Gebirgsjäger units were also outfitted with loads of SMGs.

On what is this based? I have the unit histories for 4 of the Jäger and 5 of the Gebirgsjäger divisions. None of them mention being outfitted with SMG's as per CMBB squads from 1942 onwards. Neither does the photographic evidence (such that it is) in these books support an SMG heavy structure. Two do however note the issuing of the MP44 in late 1944.

These difference between these divisions and the regular Infanterie was at battalion and regimental level - i.e. 5 companies per battalion not in individual weapon issue. CMBB reflects this correctly in the 1941 OOB.

On the other hand the independent Jäger (and possibly the few non-regimental GebirgsJäger battalions were probably armed with a heavier % of automatic weapons given their projected roles. Similarly after the TOE of the SkiJäger Brigade/Division had a high % of auot weapons - IIRCC this unit was created out a number of the independent Jäger battalions.

[Silvio Manuel]

Despite heavy SMG formations in the early years, the Germans have their own nation-specific advantages that must be used to maximum effect, namely vastly superior artillery response times, better c-and-c for armor thru widespread radios), medium speed inf.flamethrowers, 150mm infantry guns, cheap StuGs and heavy SPGs, "normal" command delays for infantry, better tank gun optics, etc. I would think that RV's like the 251/16 and Flammpanzers are just about *required* for dense terrain vs. PPsH toting commies.

[ November 02, 2002, 06:19 PM: Message edited by: Silvio Manuel ]