the little guy no one buys!

[Chad Harrison]

that little guy is the M8 Heavy Mortar Carriage (HMC). bassicly, its the 75mm pack howitzer planted in an open top turret on the Stuart chasis and hull. the howitzer has 46 rounds of ammunition, and it has no other weapon than the M2 .50cal AAMG, which has only 16 "shots". now heres the catch, shes only 58 points with a regular crew.

so why dont we buy more of them? or do we? if you buy two of them, that the same price as the M4 Sherman. when we play the germans, how often does the PSW 234/3 (also with 75mm gun, 50 rounds of ammo, one MG, and no turret) show up in our forces for only 8 more points?

ive tried the M8 HMC in a couple of experiments, and from what i can see it has three big drawbacks:

<UL TYPE=SQUARE><LI>-unlike the german PSW 234 serie, its considered "armour" points. so you have to cut into your sherman/priest points to get the little sucker. in a much smaller battle (under 1000pts), their cheap prize may be a little more enticing.

<LI>-only one MG with no enough ammo to make it worth it. only 16 rounds doesnt go very far, unlike the shermans 3 MG's with 200+ rounds. when slowing down those ground pounders, those extra MG's with lots of ammo are beyond valuable! yet, last night, i KO'd a hetzer with the M8 HMC's AAMG on a side shot at 50m! i was impressed with the little guy!

<LI>LOW gun velocity! if your not recent with numbers, the 75mm pack howitzer has a velocity of 381 m/s. the sherman 75mm has 619m/s! have your little M8 HMC fire at a target over 300m and he will shoot for the sky with that 75mm! i almost hope for a tree burst! this makes hitting vehicles at ranges over 100m difficult, and hitting moving vehicles near impossible.

so do you use them? why you hate em or like? personally, i like them for a cheap anti infantry role. they are only a few points more than the M3A1, and bring along that howitzer. however, they are easy prey with the paper armour to anything bigger than a spit wad!

[Moriarty]

The HMC M-8 is one of my favorite vehicles, but then I tend to favor the less expensive and more common armor.

When using it, keep in mind that it was employed, along with the M-8 Greyhound, MG jeeps and HTs, in recon elements of an armored division. It is not intended as a MBT.

It's best use, in my experience, is in infantry support ... especially if your infantry can target and keep the 'schreck team's collective head down. It's particularly effective against MGs and dug-in squads.

That said, at relatively close ranges and generally from protected positions it can take out German armor ... any of it ... although you'll need a good dose of luck or a distraction in dealing with the big ones.

The HMC's finest hour: In one turn of a PBEM game, I had an HMC whack a 243/3 (the HMC had tagged it's mate earlier in the game ... just a fine shot), a Nashorn heretofore unseen in a wheat field (targeting a TD ... distraction) and a King Tiger (targeting the aformentioned TD).

The KT had swung around and brewed up the M-10. The HMC, at about 70m put a 75mm round through the back of the turret.

[ 08-07-2001: Message edited by: Moriarty ]

[Agua]

These things, if they are used in large numbers, well, there's no other way to say it other than they can be plain out gamey. They are so cheap, in a one thousand point match, you can purchase 5 regular crews (I think). They are hard to hit because of their small profile, they are quick, and if you purchase vets, they down right resemble a pack of cagey roaches scrambling for cover. They have 4 c charges (I believe), and can take out anything the germans have smaller than a panther from the front. A panther can be killed from the front sides by these little bugs. These things are just plain killer in moderate woods or heavy woods. One will pound your infantry from the edge of a copse of trees and when you move anything in, it will pop smoke and back into cover, while one of its brethren knocks your armour out from the side. About the only way to combat these critters in moderate to heavy woods is to purchase several schrecks.

Because of the point allocation, in combined arms QB's of 1,000 or less, it presents a problem for the german player: do you anticipate an M8 horde and go for the extra schrecks, or do you play a normal full infantry company battle and risk getting toasted by these things.

[Chad Harrison]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Agua:

Because of the point allocation, in combined arms QB's of 1,000 or less, it presents a problem for the german player: do you anticipate an M8 horde and go for the extra schrecks, or do you play a normal full infantry company battle and risk getting toasted by these things.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

i agree to thier value, they can be very annoying when on the recieving end, and a tide turner when used as a fast howitzer. these little bugers have a nemesis however: ther German PSW 234/1. if your ever the germans and fear allied light armour, the 234/1 is a safe bet. rapid fire 20mm with lots of ammo. i have seen many a light tank/vehicle be lost to these eight wheeled annoyances.

[Michael Emrys]

I like them. I will use a couple of them to support a platoon of Greyhounds or Stuarts if I am playing a light armor/recon scenario or to support a platoon of Shermans if I don't have enough points to purchase 105 Shermans. While, as noted above, they can get lucky against German armor, that's really a misuse of them. They are support and anti-infantry weapons. Send the Shermans or M10s to tangle with the German armor. Hold the M8s back to deal with infantry toting Fausts or Schrecks or suspected guns.

Michael

[tecumseh]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Chad Harrison:

so why dont we buy more of them? or do we?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

See that guy Wreck with like 20 straight wins at the top of TH ladder? He is the patron saint of M8s. IIRC he has stated on this forum that he'll buy a Jackson, a Priest, and then spend the rest of his armor points on M8s. They crawl over the map like an evil, open-topped plague... and if yr playing CAL and have a limit on guns they are hell to face.

[Wreck]

M8 GMCs are definitely one of the bargains in CM. I had not seen them for a while at TH but then of recent people have started talking about them again.

Swamp was telling me the other day about a 2000 point armor battle he won as Americans, taking a M8 swarm -- 18 M8s, no other armor. The enemy had a King Tiger, some panthers, etc. 5 ubertanks in all. That meant that Swamp could afford to lose 4 roaches for every tank he took out. He ended up losing 10, IIRC, killing all 5 ubertanks. 580 points lost vs 1000+ lost by the German. That'll win a battle.

In large part this just shows the weaknesses of supertanks. They have good performance, but they don't have good price/performance except perhaps against other supertanks. Swamp's opponent would have been much happier had be bought hetzers. For the 1000 or so spent, he could have had 12, which would have been sufficient to prevent the M8s from getting easy flank shots.

So that's my main way of dealing with M8s. Hetzers. They are not as good against infantry, but they are much better against tanks.

Another tank that is worth considering is the StuH42 (late). With slightly sloped 80mm front armor, it can be just barely penetrated by the M8's c rounds; but with a favorable angle from terrain it can take them. It is of course great against infantry. And unlike the Hetzer, it is available under Fionn's 75.

In heavy woods, I agree with Agua: schrecks can help. But your own armor (especially StuHs) can do much the same thing as the Americans.

In reasonably open terrain, cheap guns are probably the best way to deal with M8 swarms. In particular the 75mm inf gun is a bargain at 33 points, and if the American doesn't take M8s you still get to shred his infantry for cheap.

Tecumsah reports my views pretty accurately. Especially in a more open and hilly situation, I like having a TD to deal with long range threats, including side shots opened up by maneuvering M8s. Priests are always optional.

[tecumseh]

It would be great to see more posts to this forum from technicians. i think there would be less anti-tec flaming here than on the main forum.

BTW, when are you gonna lose a game Wreck? Then i will get the highest winning run on TH,...at least for a day...

[Cybeq]

I, too love the little M8 HMC. I like to pair them up with Stuarts to cover them. The Stuart has three mg's and the M8 has the howitzer. A match made in heaven. I agree with the statement that one drawback is you have to spend armor points to get them. That sucks.

[Patton_71]

Absolutely undeniably gamey... Any moron who runs more than 1 of these things in CM qualifies for this all-too-common label. According to my sources, approximately 1800 M8 GMC were produced. (remember that this vehiocle was more of a favorite in the pacific theatre) The fellow that had 18 deployed in the game represented a full 1% of the entire production run of the vehicle,much more when you consider that no more than 60% or so went to europe.

Following the history of the vehicle, the M8 was being replaced in the american formation in favor of the Sherm 105. You would be hard pressed to find an M8 past Nov 44. Personally, I do not purchase a vehicle in a game that i cannot justify as reasonably common.

Personally, i enjoy a ramdom setup by the computer. This may sometimes result in a diffocult fight, but no one can at all mention the word 'gamey" in that instance.

Patton_71

[Mr. Johnson--]

yeah, they not uncommon on the battlefield at all. They are all over the place, played a game where the other guy had 6, don't recall how it played out. But thats lots of Direct fire HE.

[Cybeq]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Patton_71:

Personally, i enjoy a ramdom setup by the computer. This may sometimes result in a diffocult fight, but no one can at all mention the word 'gamey" in that instance.

Patton_71<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I don't know.... You are having the "game" pick your units. I would submit to you that not everybody who plays by e-mail knows what the production numbers for all WWII AFV's were. At the same time I think we can agree that in a QB 18 of any AFV could be considered "gamey".

[Holien]

The issue here is not what is gamey but what units you don't buy.

I tend not to buy Archers after a nasty experience with them against a Hezter.

Please chaps don't let this thread get into a gamey debate.

This game allows people to play the way they want so live and let live.

H

[tecumseh]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by tecumseh:

i think there would be less anti-technician flaming here than on the main forum.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

....or maybe not

[Vanir Ausf B]

Nobody buys them huh? In a game I'm playing now my opponent bought no less than 9 of them (3000 pt ME, heavy woods, S75 rule).

[Chad Harrison]

sounds like the people i play dont fall into the above categories; i have yet to run into one when playing the germans. however, i reason i made this thread is that i love the little suckers, sometimes. as i stated above they have their advantages and disadvantages.

as to patton_71, i dont know their exact numbers produced, and they were used more in PTO (ideal weapon, lighter vehicle, howitzer capable of canister rounds, ect.).

just incase you did not hear yet, in CM2 they are introducing a rarity factor (like Adv. Squad Leader if your familiar with that). so that will discourage buying too many of a rare thing. you could also argue how often we all use the germans PSW 234's. there were only 200 PSW 234/1 built, and 88 PSW 234/3 built. yet we see hundreds of those suckers!

[Wilhammer]

My over dependence on them for QBs makes me wonder if I am being "gamey" with them.

Typically, in a 1500-2000 point QB, I can buy enough of them to attach one per platoon and still buy a couple of other tanks or GMCs.

Since the survivability of them is not much worse than a Sherman at this scale, it is a sound purchase. If you fear some German tanks, buy a pair of Jacksons, Hellcats or 76 Shermans.

Because of thier open top, I keep them beyond 200 meters range of enemy units. Ironically, because I am more careful with them, they last longer than if I had Shermans, and they typically use up all of their ammo. Since they have no AP, and are reluctant to use HEAT, they atre not as distracted to other targets as Shermans are.

It seems to me that when I have fought battles, most opponents are concerned about one or the other as priority one in fighting Germans; getting their tanks or taking the objectives. I go for the latter. If you ignore planning for the German tanks, you can actually do better. After all, what good is a Panther if it ain't got no tanks/SPGs to shoot at? Might as well own Stugs.

BTW, I find the M-20 AC to be a good compliment to the M-8 HMC. It is dirt cheap, and useful for local recon. Not to mention that .50 cal can be deadly to the German PSWs and SPWs.

[Moriarty]

A generic TO&E for the U.S. 4th Armored Division circa 1944-45 indicates that the Recce squadron would have approximately 8 HMCs and 15 M8 Greyhounds and 17 M5A1 Stuarts available ... with maybe a couple extra popping up.

For those interested, the site is at:

http://us4tharmordiv.tripod.com/ArmorTO.htm

If you're trying to come up with a historic lineup for a QB, 18 or even 9 is probably a bit much. But, if it's not a "historic" or even "as-historic-as-we-can" game, the other side doesn't have much ground for complaint.

My own preference is to limit purchases to two.

[ 08-09-2001: Message edited by: Moriarty ]

[gredeker]

I'm a big fan of using M8s, often in combination with Greyhounds (which don't use up your armor points). I've had pretty good success attaching one M8 per platoon of attacking infantry (or at least one per flank or axis of attack), following 100+ meters behind the infantry for local fire support. If the Greyhound is nearby, then you have defense against any pesky 20mm + HTs/ACs which would otherwise take out the M8.

A posthumous citation has to go to one particular M8 crew - they stood toe to toe trading shots with a KT, distracting it long enough for a hellcat running full speed to pull up behind the KT and shoot it in the butt. Sadly, the M8 was killed but a few seconds before the hellcat took out the KT...

[Sergeant Saunders]

I had not used them much, but after reading this, I tried them in a QB attack. There was a small town. I had 9 M8s. I don't like to use AFVs in towns, but you know those 9 75mms only took 5 turns to eliminate all the buildings in the town and then didn't take too much longer to force the defenders out in the open. I did loose 3, but seemed fair.

[Agua]

Moriarty,

I think that is a good rule of thumb to go by in general. Personally, I think 3 of any AFV / 1000 QB in a CA is pretty fair.

[Patton_71]

Actually chad, one of my souces i checked for production numbers was the chapter H resources for ASL.

As to wild bill, you are right, we are playing a wargame..about WWII...If i wanted to play a game about min-maxing my forces to and beyond the brink, id playsomething else. That is kind of why I perfer the random setups. The computer is pretty good aobut achieving a reasonably believable force, while maintaining variety. And besides, i have happily played a game where i faced 2 KT, a Jagd Panther, with nothing heavier than 57mm ATG and my 105 VT arty, backed up with green infantry. I lost, but certainly by a narrower margin than my opponent believed i should have.

I guess my issue is the points system itself. After all, we are dealing with someones estimation of the effectivness of the various items we have. Which, being the competitive fellows we are, leads to abuse (this thread being case in point). Name me any commander who was faced with the problem of squeezing the point mix so he can get that second veteran tank. ( "Sorry George, you have already used up your allottment of veteran m4a3(w)75's...could I interest you in something along the m-10 line?") But you are right bill, its a wargame...but it is an absolute shame that such a fine game as CM is being turned into such a poor representation of the reality of WWII combat.

sincerely , and respectively yours,

Patton_71

[Wreck]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>

If I wanted to play a game about min-maxing my forces... I'd play something else.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I am curious (and serious): what would you play?

IMO, there is nothing better for the serious mechanic, than to play a game that is pretty hard to min-max.

And in any case, as you said you want to play a fun game about WWII. At least one mechanic likes the subject matter just as much as you do.

However your point about bargains in CM is well taken. One thing serious mechanics do, faced with the problem, is to make up extra rules to avoid it. But not all bargains can be banned, and so the problem remains (if perhaps somewhat abated).

One the things I have been trying to get going is a decent random picker for forces. The one CM comes with doesn't cut it in my book; it is not fair enough.

[xerxes]

For random picks, I was thinking what might work is generating 3 versions of a random force QB and sending them all to your opponent and letting them pick 1 that looks good. That way you wouldn't be saddled with a really awful force selection.

Does that make sense?

A well designed random force picker would be great btw.

- xerxes

[Agua]

Hey if you guys like to max out on m8 HMC's, volkstrum smg's, puppchen or whatever, that's cool. But understand that just as you may see no problem with it, there are folks who do and won't play an opponent who engages in that sort of thing. All this crap can really be resolved by just discussing it beforehand. Live and let live.