Still Concerned about Troops Tiring...(pics)

[Battlefront.com]

PL,

Please understand that you just skipped over and ignored all the statements by me about the weight, insanely well conditioned civilians, and other military personnel in order to maintain your "it just isn't right" stance. As you know the way we operate is by examining all sides of the discussion and seeing which brings more/better evidence to the table. Currently I think it is solidly in favor of the modeling being more accurate than not.

The factors which contributed to the early tiring out are, so far as I can tell:

1. Unit Experience

2. Slope

3. Terrain on Slope

4. Weather (air temp)

5. Order type.

It appears you have not understood what Assault is. It isn't a guy with a LMG rushing forward 20m. It is a guy with a LMG rushing forward a few meters, hitting the dirt, firing off some rounds (possibly), getting up again and rushing a few more meters, hitting the dirt, etc. In your specific case it is a bunch of guys, who are not propperly trained, rushing forward in this way in unfavorable terrain, on unfavorable slope, and with energy sapping mother nature beating down upon them.

I also don't know what the problem could possibly be here. I have never had a problem keeping my guys in decent shape. Yeah, sometimes they get to TIRED state, but after Assaulting 50m to take a house, I expect that. Within a couple of turns they are as right as rain again. Of course I am talking about Regular Fit troops or better.

As I have said before in similar threads, I think the people that are having problems with Condition are pushing their troops too hard too fast. My universal answer to this is SLOW IT DOWN. That will take care of most problems. However, I think some people do not correctly understand what each of the orders is designed to do and therefore use them incorrectly with the correct (but not desired) end results.

Assault is something that should be used sparingly and over short distances. It should also be used carefully to take into consideration the conditions specific to that situation.

Steve

[Marlow]

Originally posted by Panzer Leader:

I don't know what IMT means.

Must have not been combat arms. Think back to basic training. It stands for Individual Movement Techniques. Remember the Three to five second rushes, low crawling, high crawling, rolling, dropping, etc...

Try doing that up-hill over broken terrain.

[Battlefront.com]

PL,

Actually, they started out at "Assault" but sometime in the 34 seconds of move, they switched to "Advance" i'm not sure when.

In CM units will only continue to use such an order if they are physically and/or mentally capable of doing so. If they dropped from Assault to Advance it was because they couldn't "hack it" any more in Assault mode. In your situation it appears that this was because of physical reasons (i.e. they didn't have their morale shook up).

I am asking one simple question: Is it reasonable that in combat troops can realistically become SO tired in SUCH a short amount of time? In this instance it was 34 seconds for 20 meters movement.

Time and distance are not abstract elements that can be sectioned off from the other conditions of the situation. Would it be realistic for a Regular Fit unit in Mild temps to tire after going 20 meters in open ground using Assault? No. Would it be realistic for the unit you used in your example, in your example, to have tired in 34 seconds if it was using Advance instead of Assault? No.

My point is that there is no sort of universal answer. Each situation requires a degree of tailored expectations which you use to plan accordingly. Sometimes the end result is not what you expected, but if you have it "about right" it won't cause a serious problem.

For example, in a game I played I ordered a couple of Veteran/Regular Fit unit sto Assault through scattered trees and open terrain in order to get into some rubbled buildings. Distance was probably... hmmm... 50m-70m? They got there but some were TIRED and others were TIRING. I didn't expect the TIRED results, but I didn't find fault with it either. So the next batch of guys I had move up used ADVANCE instead since I knew the imediate terrain was clear. They got to their positions without tiring out. I waited for my initial force to catch their breath, then I used smaller leap frog movements using Advance or Assault where needed. I had the whole area under my control in about 10 turns total with all troops right as rain

Steve

[Panzer Leader]

Originally posted by Marlow:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Panzer Leader:

I don't know what IMT means.

Must have not been combat arms. Think back to basic training. It stands for Individual Movement Techniques. Remember the Three to five second rushes, low crawling, high crawling, rolling, dropping, etc...

Try doing that up-hill over broken terrain.</font>

[Battlefront.com]

Quick tip on using Assault vs. Advance:

ADVANCE gives you most of what you need to get troops from A to B while under fire (or potential fire). This should be the standard method for moving troops around when chances are good that they will be shot at. Otherwise use MOVE instead, or RUN if you need to cover ground quickly.

ASSAULT is like ADVANCE on steroids This order should not be used to move guys from A to B while under fire, but instead to move guys under fire into a position that is within spitting distance of a known enemy position. In short, this order is exactly as it sounds. Your troops are using MAXIMUM force and skills to get to a spot and eliminate any threat that might be there. This is very taxing work and requires a high degree of skill, which is why Conscripts can not use this order.

My standard rule of thumb is to only use Assault if I think my end waypoint is going to be within grenade distance of an enemy unit OR a position which I assume might have an enemy unit. I also tend to use Assault more when there is less supporting fire available.

For example, in my village attack I mentioned above, my first wave used Assault because I couldn't see jack squat inside the village and I expected enemy resistance. Because my supporting platoons (I had a Company sized force) couldn't offer any supporting fire beyond the first row of rubble, I issued Assault orders. Once my guys got there, without being fired upon, the next wave used Advance. They were unlikely to be fired upon and there were friendly troops in FRONT of them to provide covering fire.

Hope that makes sense

Steve

[Panzer Leader]

You know what though? This is silly and I'm whining! I can deal with it, especially since this sort of thing is abstracted. The tiny little flaw that *I* see is so inconsequential that I'm sorry I brought it up.

It goes back to your "Universal rules" thing, I think, where no rule can be 100% right 100% of the time, but if, in the vast majority of cases, it ends with a realistic result, it is a good rule.

And the infantry model is fantastic. Please waste no more time on this, but instead begin adding the "Horse-Campaign" layer to the new engine. Thanx!

[Terrapin]

Originally posted by Panzer Leader:

One minute from rested to tired for fit troops, REGARDLESS of the environment or their orders, seems like the max troops can get tired out.

See, this is the issue. It's NEVER "regardless of the environment". It CAN'T be. They're not supposed to exist in some sort of sterile, lab-white environment.

If your recommendation was used, they wouldn't get tired under a minute while assaulting up a 45 degree muddy slope, in trees, in 100 degree temperatures. And, then what? How do you take into account more ideal circumstances? On a 60 degree day on firm, flat earth, do they assault for FIVE MINUTES without getting tired?

[Battlefront.com]

PL,

I think the perception problem you are having is that you are expecting decent results from rather poor troops in difficult conditions. If you told me Elite Fit troops got tired like this over open ground in Mild temps I would be disturbed

Also remember that Fitness rating also determines how quickly a unit recovers. I think it is perfectly normal to expect even good troops to tire quickly when going flat out. But the difference is that good quality troops should bounce back much faster. Like my guys that used Assault. They were back to Rested state very quickly. This would not have been the case if they were Unfit.

Steve

[Panzer Leader]

You know, I never looked at their experience rating. I know I bought all "regular" but it's very possible these were on the "green" end of the spectrum. However, I do know they were fit, since I have et to use anything else.

I'm also sure that you're right and a moment without movement will bring them to at least 'ready.' Sadly, since it's a PBEM, I have to wait to find out.

I hereby admit to one and all that I was crying wolf when it was but a little kitten walking in front of a candle-flame.

[Seanachai]

Originally posted by Panzer Leader:

I hereby admit to one and all that I was crying wolf when it was but a little kitten walking in front of a candle-flame.

Not good enough.

Lie down on your belly, scrabble up handfuls of dirt and toss them upon your head. Then beg Steve to put his foot upon your neck.

[Terrapin]

Originally posted by Seanachai:

Or run up a steep hill for 34 seconds with 50 lbs of gear!!

[Redwolf]

Originally posted by Seanachai:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Panzer Leader:

I hereby admit to one and all that I was crying wolf when it was but a little kitten walking in front of a candle-flame.

Not good enough.

Lie down on your belly, scrabble up handfuls of dirt and toss them upon your head. Then beg Steve to put his foot upon your neck.</font>

[Battlefront.com]

PL,

No problemo I still think this was a good discussion. Good information was brought forward as well as, I hope, some useful tips. The points you brought up are nothing we haven't seen before, and will probably see again. Hopefully this discussion will be brought to the next thread on fatigue ratings if one should pop up.

BTW, last winter I decided to take a walk in the woods with a complete contemporary German Army combat kit, including G3, ammo, equipment, uniform, helmet, etc. I used snowshoes on 3' of snow. The terrain was rough and densely wooded, so I stuck to "skidder trails" (logging term for small trails to get wood out) until I got to a significant but small wooded hill. I did this just before sundown. I just wanted to see what it felt like to hump all that crap through the woods since I never had to do that before.

While I was only in decent shape at the time, I was also using snowshoes on cleared (mostly) paths. I covered about 400-500m at a walking pace without stopping. I don't remember how long it took, but it was probably 10-15 minutes. By the time I got up to the top of the little hill, I needed a break Then I walked back in pitch black (yeah, that was interesting!).

While this in no way simulated a real combat (or even soldiering) experience, I can say it was not easy. I snowshoe and ski all the time and the weight makes a HUGE difference.

Steve

[Seanachai]

Originally posted by Battlefront.com:

PL,

No problemo Steve

You're much too easy on him.

Wait till you see what we do to him in the Cesspool...

[Panzer Leader]

You know Steve, there are places where you could talk about dressing up in full German Military Regalia for a jaunt through the woods and the people would not take it so matter-of-factly. Luckily, it was Contemporary! What would your neighbors think if they were out on a turkey shoot, and came across Feldwebel Steiner assaulting up a hill in the dark??

[PvtTom]

So what types of move are the most tiring?

Assault

Advance

Run

Sneak

Contact

Move

in that order? Which am I missing?

[Battlefront.com]

Seanachai,

You're much too easy on him.

Wait till you see what we do to him in the Cesspool...

I'd rather run up that hill with 150 lbs of kit before looking at the stinking hole you call home Oh wait, I don't think you will understand this so I'll speak Cesspoolese for you:

You are such a git Seanachai! You think that normal people, with at least partial lives like me, have any interest in the stinking hole you call home? Sod off!

PL,

You know Steve, there are places where you could talk about dressing up in full German Military Regalia for a jaunt through the woods and the people would not take it so matter-of-factly.

Very true!

What would your neighbors think if they were out on a turkey shoot, and came across Feldwebel Steiner assaulting up a hill in the dark??

"I'm tresspassing on the wrong land!" Actually, my land isn't posted so I could run into a hunter or two in my travels. This is why I don't go running around in camo clothing during Oct-Dec timeframe Anybody coming upon me on my land with a gun in February had better be lost and smart enough to make no sudden moves

Steve

[Eden Smallwood]

Just thought I'd moot the question of how different types of units compare wrt getting tired. Of course MGs... forget them. I mean do Pioneers get tired more easily than Rifles, (are those satchel charges really beefy?) I've never noticed in game, but it might be interesting?

Eden

[Seanachai]

Originally posted by Battlefront.com:

Oh wait, I don't think you will understand this so I'll speak Cesspoolese for you:

You are such a git Seanachai! You think that normal people, with at least partial lives like me, have any interest in the stinking hole you call home? Sod off!

Steve

Alright, who taught Grammont the Secret Cesspool Handshake?!

Hey, Steve, I just found out in the Cesspool last night that I have a special reserved guest room at Hakko's house. If you ever descend south of the Mason Dixon line, you can stay there if you like. Just tell Hakko I said it was okay.

His kids might be in there crying and praying, but just ignore them.

[Terrapin]

Originally posted by PvtTom:

So what types of move are the most tiring?

Assault

Advance

Run

Sneak

Contact

Move

in that order? Which am I missing?

That looks right, if you're going by "Time spent doing the activity". Of course, if it's distance covered, Sneak is number one easily.

I don't know what "Human Wave" is, probably close to Assault.

[manchildstein (ii)]

Originally posted by Panzer Leader:

Did YOU read the first post where I laid out my argument? I don't know what IMT means. Actually, they started out at "Assault" but sometime in the 34 seconds of move, they switched to "Advance" i'm not sure when. Also, it might be worth noting that at the very end of the turn, they expended one ammo point on routed and broken enemy troops. You can see the targetting line.

I am asking one simple question: Is it reasonable that in combat troops can realistically become SO tired in SUCH a short amount of time? In this instance it was 34 seconds for 20 meters movement.

it might be interesting to know how long it took that squad to go 'back' from 'tired' to 'ready'...