Will City Fighting Be Improved In CMBB?

[Col Deadmarsh]

To be honest, I think city fighting in QB scenarios in CM is a complete bore.

What bothers me is that the roads in these computer generated scenarios are too straight, the houses too uniform, and the road graphics are blindingly annoying--and no, the mods do not help with the latter. Nobody's put out a decent one yet which solves this problem.

I admit the computer does a pretty decent job with QB's for villages and more rural maps, with the exception of the fact that it can't include bridges and Bocage (Why is this again?) For city maps though, this part of the game needs to be improved for CMBB. As it is right now, I have no interest in playing any more computer generated city maps unless they are canned scenarios made by experienced designers.

To cut this short, what we need is curves in the roads, different variations in building shapes (which are supposedly going to be in CMBB), and a pavement graphic that won't blind us (Less lines in the BMP should take care of this). Lastly, we need to be able to move from building to building without having to run outside one house and into another, jeopardizing the squad in the process.

[Captain Wacky]

That would require engine changes.

[jloco]

[ 01-13-2002: Message edited by: jloco ]</p>

[jloco]

I agree with you about cities, most scenario designers tend to lay out Cities/Towns straight and even, if you have ever been to Europe this is hardly the case. In Europe streets are narrow and and very rarely run straight for long distances. I have had some luck creating some realistic European type towns, but it's hard to do this quickly within the curent game.

[ 01-13-2002: Message edited by: jloco ]</p>

[Slapdragon]

<blockquote>quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Colonel_Deadmarsh:

with the exception of the fact that it can't include bridges and Bocage (Why is this again?).<hr></blockquote>

Because the force isolated by the river from a flag will be at a severe disadvantage, while bocage heavily favors the defender until the Allies gets the plows, then the Allies have the nod. To make either of these workable would take significant programming effort that just was not worth it, especially when the QB is not the primary form of game envisioned by the designers.

[Col Deadmarsh]

<blockquote>quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Captain Wacky:

That would require engine changes.<hr></blockquote>

Could you be a little less succinct? Which one of the above topics are you talking about?

[gredeker]

<blockquote>quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by jloco:

I agree with you about cities, most scenario designers tend to lay out Cities/Towns straight and even, if you have ever been to Europe this is hardly the case. In Europe streets are narrow and and very rarely run straight for long distances. I have had some luck creating some realistic European type towns, but it's hard to do this quickly within the curent game.

[ 01-13-2002: Message edited by: jloco ]<hr></blockquote>

I've never been to Europe, but a lot of the pictures I've seen have included odd-shaped buildings to fit odd-shaped intersections. Does anyone know if BTS plans to include more oddly shaped buildings, such as an "L" or a triangle/wedge?

[The Commissar]

Deadmarsh,

I don't really see how BTS could solve these city-fighting problems while still remaining realistic.

I agree with you that it is simply idiotic how troops run out of a building, into the street, and into the adjacent building when you order them to move from one to the other, getting shot up by everyone and the kitchen sink in the process.

However, how would you propose this be changed? You seem to think that they should walk through the walls.

Well, I don't think this is realistic at all. Unless you have engineers on hand with powerful satchel charges, there is simply no way you will blow a gap large enough in a wall of a stone building. In cities that are not completely demolished, it will be difficult for troops to find crumbling walls which they can sneak though into the building from the side. So the only choice remains to go into the street.

However, in real life it would be done differently of course. Men would cross the open space in small numbers, not an entire squad at a time, with lots of small unit tactics ensuring that a minimum ammount of casualties are taken crossing the street or entering into an adjacent building. Likewise, the men who were crossing the open spaces would have plenty of cover to duck behind, from craters in the roads to behind building walls, etc. CM TAC AI does not simulate this, and I think to program it to simulate it would be very difficult. Perhaps an engine change would indeed be necessary.

There's really no simple way to go around improving city fights. If you simplify it too much, it become unrealistic. If you try to make it too realistic, you reach the limits of what the engine is capable of. Im looking forward to seeing what BTS will come up with.

[Wolfe]

<blockquote>quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by The Commissar:

I agree with you that it is simply idiotic how troops run out of a building, into the street, and into the adjacent building when you order them to move from one to the other, getting shot up by everyone and the kitchen sink in the process. However, how would you propose this be changed?<hr></blockquote>

Well... From the HomeLan Fed interview:

"the exciting new "Build-Your-Own Factory" tiles that allow you to construct vast factory complexes with just about any shape and size you want!"

And A Bone is Thrown!

"Yes, when factories are strung together you do not have to go outside in order to enter a new tile."

And don't forget the sewers. And new top hull penetrations (from direct-fired weapons) which will also aid city fighting!

- Chris

[Michael Dorosh]

<blockquote>quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by The Commissar:

Deadmarsh,

Men would cross the open space in small numbers, not an entire squad at a time, with lots of small unit tactics .<hr></blockquote>

One of the new movement options will simulate this, I do believe.

[Kwazydog]

Heya Guys,

Something else which should make quite a difference to city fighting is the way CM now splits squads. You will find that if you split a squad now that one section tends to get the smg's, satchel charges, grenade bundles and AT weapons (not all, but most) whilst the other retains the lmg and rifles.

This effectively allow you to create a small assault or AT team whilst keeping the LMG team in an overwatch position (in conjunction with the cover arc command).

Dan

PS : Most of the changes listed above will have to wait for the rewrite though, in which we will be making those changes and more.

[Iron Chef Sakai]

Sounds like a good idea to me.

CMBB is going to be a classic i think.

It's funny how alot of gamers see war games are boring, drab or bland, yet the war games(thanks to CMBO) are and have been the most innovative genre.

I mean how many years have they been recycling age of empires? perfect example is galactc battle grounds, it's nothing but a poor age of empire mod that makes units into star wars graphics that do the same thing.

I don't like RTS games, but you'd think they would have at least improved them for the people that do enjoy them.

[Gyrene]

Tanks a Lot (I think) made a small map of a city on hilly terrain that did an excellent job of capturing that close-in feel.

Now if I could only find that map...

Gyrene

[kipanderson]

Hi,

Just a quick point.

The QB generator may not build very realistic cities. I would not know, I have never used it. However, with the use of the scenario/map editor it is possible to build some very European looking towns, no problem.

When it comes to he actual fighting in cities, I think CMBO models it very well.

All the best,

Kip.

[Andreas]

<blockquote>quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by kipanderson:

Hi,

Just a quick point.

The QB generator may not build very realistic cities. I would not know, I have never used it. However, with the use of the scenario/map editor it is possible to build some very European looking towns, no problem.

When it comes to he actual fighting in cities, I think CMBO models it very well.

All the best,

Kip.<hr></blockquote>

I would agree with that - I think it is really not that much a problem of a lack in the combat model, but more one of a lack of imagination in terms of scenarios and inadequacies in the QB generator.

The changes Dan talks about are very welcome though, and will serve to make it even better.

[xerxes]

Having wrecks provide cover and concealment would be a nice addition too! I wonder if areas made out of Doo-dads (like a cemetary) will act like rough terrain, that would be another nice addition.

Jloco: Can you send me some of your euro-city maps, I'd love to take a look at them. Thanks!

marc

vmclz@swbell.net

[psklenar]

<blockquote>quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Gyrene:

Tanks a Lot (I think) made a small map of a city on hilly terrain that did an excellent job of capturing that close-in feel.

Now if I could only find that map...<hr></blockquote>

Check out Surlybn's Knife fight in Cannes. I think this might be the one you're thinking of? Great battle, small in scale but large in suspense. I really need to write a review over on Scenario Depot. {sigh}