Do I have the right to bitch?

[Captain Wacky]

<blockquote>quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Louie the Toad:

Cap'n Wacky,

Bye the way, how are you doing in the game?

Which course are you following?

Curious Toad.<hr></blockquote>

Nothing has changed since I first posted the topic. Haven't received a turn in two days. Perhaps my opponent read this thread.

I won't say which ladder I'm playing on, but my opponent is in the top ten.

[rwcanuck]

Just want to say I got the exact same setup from I presume the same guy. You can see the thread I started on the BoB site.

http://pub61.ezboard.com/fwebandofbrothersfrm1.showMessageRange?topicID=1264.topic&start=1&stop=20

Hopefully Scipio over at the Warfare HQ will something about this guy.

RW

[Captain Wacky]

<blockquote>quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by rwcanuck:

Just want to say I got the exact same setup from I presume the same guy. You can see the thread I started on the BoB site.

http://pub61.ezboard.com/fwebandofbrothersfrm1.showMessageRange?topicID=1264 .topic&start=1&stop=20

Hopefully Scipio over at the Warfare HQ will something about this guy.

RW<hr></blockquote>

HOLY F*CKING ****! THAT'S THE EXACT SAME EMAIL MESSAGE I GOT! THAT SCUMMY LITTLE SLIMEBAG! ITS ALL A SCAM! THERE'S NO WAY HIS FORCES ARE COMP. GENERATED AS HE SAID!

[Vanir Ausf B]

Busted

[rwcanuck]

Hey Wacky, I think you would a agree if it was a map with a hills, more trees and buildngs our mobile force could possibly take out those 4 Panthers from the side or rear while our Zook teams took care of the StuGs. It would be a fine challenge but this guy took care of that threat by having such a wide-open map with little or no cover. Pity! BTW I used smoke cover to take out 2 StuGs and capture one flag before doing a ceasefire knowing something was terribly wrong with the setup.

RW

[Captain Wacky]

<blockquote>quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by rwcanuck:

Hey Wacky, I think you would a agree if it was a map with a hills, more trees and buildngs our mobile force could possibly take out those 4 Panthers from the side or rear while our Zook teams took care of the StuGs. It would be a fine challenge but this guy took care of that threat by having such a wide-open map with little or no cover. Pity! BTW I used smoke cover to take out 2 StuGs and capture one flag before doing a ceasefire knowing something was terribly wrong with the setup.

RW<hr></blockquote>

I'm going to send out an email to Scipio at Warfarehq. I hope you do the same.

[Bog]

Yes, as long as you have it wormed and spayed first.

[Captain Wacky]

Deadly 88, thats the guy. He's ranked 3rd on teh Warfare HQ ladder but I guess we know how he got all his points

[rwcanuck]

Deadly 88 seemed like a nice fellow to talk to by email. To bad he had to resort to such low-handed tactics to win a game. I wonder what Scipio will do with him?

RW

[Deadly 88]

Greetings,

I am assuming that you are Captain Wacky ?...?

I read the threads that you sent to me. They are not very flattering. I attempted to answer the thread, however I am not a member(waiting for a password). The thread sure stirred up alot of controversy....not all of it bad fortunately. I would have preferred that you asked me about this battle before going public and embarrasing me openly.

Just a couple of things I would like to say...

I had a few drinks one night and came up with a great idea (or so I thought). I would create a 1500 point quick battle, armour set-up (computer generated), farmland, mod trees, flat (ideal for Armour Combat) and send out a challenge to some random opponents. During my set-up phase, I was surprised that I had Four Panthers (many random games with the computer had 3 panthers, Tigers, Jadpanthers, but rarely 4). Also had 4 StuG42's, again I was surprised. However I had very little in the way of Infantry. Having played many games against the AI, I disregarded the the odd set-up and proceeded (I have lost many Panthers to M10's, Fireflies, Jumbo's etc and a few to Greyhounds & Stuarts from the side). I never gave it another thought as I sent it out to some random opponents. A few of the guys didn't respond, a few responded with requests that they were too busy, and a few responded with the next turn. Only three guys actually asked that the game be ended because they didn't feel they had a chance with the force selection that they had. I agreed and asked them to send me a set-up, which all three have done. As the battles have progressed, I would have to say that I'm winning them (approx 70%), and I have offered and been asked for re-matches by most of my opponents.

I never intended for this to end up as a controversy, I simply enjoy the battles. With the exception of 2 completed battles (the controversial one), all of my opponents would agree to my integrity. Check the ladder, all my opponents, and send them an e-mail...Deathdealer, Sunray, Majot Taktik, Scipio, etc...

I am now at a loss for words...If I have done something that is considered wrong, then I issue an apology...to all gamers everywhere...

...I will contact my opponents, end the battles, apologize profusely...and if my opponents feel that I wronged them deliberately, and the other players on the ladder feel that they cannot trust me...then I will simply disappear before Scipio gives me the boot.

I would be interested to find out how the gamers feel about this now. I am, and always was, available to talk to about, and end any battle.

Regards

Nick

[Deadly 88]

<blockquote>quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Dweezil44:

Over at the Band of brothers site, they said the alleged scumbag guy goes by the handle "deadly-88" (though "WussMaster" seems more appropriate).

He appears to be one 'Nick M.' from somewhere in Canuckland, judging by his email address ( {deleted}@vianet.on.ca ). You can view all his information here.

Just a PSA. Do with it what you will. But cheating opponents suck, especially if they have used it to advance up a ladder.

[ 01-06-2002: Message edited by: Dweezil44 ]<hr></blockquote>

Thanks for the Flattering comments about my Personality..."Scumbag, wussmaster"...I don't even know you, you don't know what actually happened, and you have the Right to Diss me...Publicly...??? Ouch !!! That really hurts...Thanks alot !!!

[nikib]

I thought I would add my two cents to the discussion - especially so since I am one of the players that is involved in one of the games. The posting is similar to the one I just posted over on the Blitzkreig site.

After my intitial misgivings over the last day or so I'm going into bat for Nick. I think it is time to clear the air a bit. By the look of it there has been a mis-understanding on both sides of the fence.

I must admit I had my doubts about the whole game. Not so much about the force composition (because I'm not experienced enough to determine what is right), but more to do with prior knowledge of the map. Obviously knowing the layout would give an advantage to a player (at least initially) which is where I felt slightly uncomfortable with.

However, I believe his main aim was to get new players involved in the various clubs and I am very grateful for it. As one other person has pointed out he was always very nice - for example he allowed me to set up again after I mucked up my password as well as offering game play advice after the first couple of turns. Also looking at the German side of the map - it also is very open and leaves little room for cover.

Using the same file for each player might have been slightly misguided, however, at face value I believe his intentions were not to mislead but to attract new players and as he said, just play the game.

I for one am thankful for the approach. Slightly annoyed about the prior knowledge of the map layout, but looking forward to meeting him in hopefully another battle.

Nik

[Scipio]

So it seems it's up to me to play the judge, cause I was called as the ladder custodian.

I'm not amused about the situation. But it is not much more than this: suspicious.

Is this force extremly unrealistic for an autoselection? YES

Is it impossible? I would say no, even if I don't know the game routines for the autoselection.

Is it uncommon to send the excactly same setup to several unknown members from the ladder? YES

But damned, is it forbidden?

Is it unfair to play out this game? Of course it would have been fair to request a restart when I notice such an excellent force selection on my side. But be true, boys: who of you had done this? And why? I must assume that the other side show up with something similar. To say it's unfair is only a point of view. I could also say 'extremly unbalanced forces are historic', even if CM can't be played historic (indeed the allies had simply retreated and called for support, but in this case the battle would have been an Axis total, too).

So what shall I do? I don't expel members on the base of suspicion. I can not punish someone without a proof.

I can only request to remove the games from the ladder, so no one get points for them. And even this is already some kind of capriciousness if it really wasn't somebodys fault.

When I played Deadly 88, he was an intelligent player who don't need primitive cheating to win (even if I have - of course - defeated him).

My question to the 'prosecutors' is: have you requested a restart when you noticed the strong Axis force, and was this request refused?

[ 01-07-2002: Message edited by: Scipio ]</p>

[Captain Wacky]

My intent when publishing this thread was not to oust someone from a ladder from mere suspician. I posted this to ask others what my options were in regards to what I considered suspicious circumstances. The situation moved forward when others came forward who shared similar experiences.

What I can say is that from my experience I have never seen such a force selection. I've seen pairs of King Tigers, 3 Tigers, 3 Panthers, all with assorted Hetzers & halftracks thrown in. Is it entirely possible that Deadly 88 is right and the computer did give him that setup? Of course. I have no choice but to accept his word in the matter.

I'm not playing for points on the ladder, just to have a good time. I posted this in the interest of fair play, for what I considered a bit of unsportsmanlike conduct. As such, I made no demands that Deadly 88 be removed or banned from any ladders. My email to Scipio was only to notify him of the problem and the circumstances involved.

I apologize for the embarassment this little incident caused to Deadly 88. In hindsight I regret not taking the matter up with him in the first place. I posted this thread to ask what my options might be, and inevitably one thing led to another as other people spoke out.

I have no problem continuing the game or starting a new one, for that matter.

Once again, my apologies

[ 01-07-2002: Message edited by: Captain Wacky ]</p>

[xerxes]

Re-using the same randomly generated map/forces is cheezy IF your opponent doesn't know this. I'm a little stunned that other people are doing this.

Deadly-88 seems like a decent enough sort, it's probably best to chalk it up as a misjudgement and move along.

-marc

[Joe Shaw]

Yeah if I were playing in a ladder (which I'm not) I would get pretty ticked off if I thought I was playing a double blind game only to find that my opponent was very familiar with it. That's one of the reasons I'm not playing in a ladder

Joe

[rwcanuck]

Also agree, enough said on this thread and I would propose the Clubs put in their rules that the same QB should NOT be sent out to various club members by one member which could lead to this sort of controversy.

As with Wacky I also apologize to Deadly 88 for any mis-understanding and bringing his name out in the open as I realize he now knows his mistake.

By taking away those wins will be the best way to handle it. I agree with Scipio.

I feel, as what was brought up in the BoB Club, that if someone wants to play random setup QBs (which can be a lot of fun) then after the sides are discussed that 3 setups are sent to the other opponent who can decide which one to play if he so wishes. This to me is the fairest way to go.

RW

[jwxspoon]

I also was the recipient of one of these games, blindly going on getting my butt kicked in the scenario before I read about this on the Blitz ladder.

I will not rehash my opinion here but suffice it to say that there is little doubt in my mind what occured. I don't buy the "whoops, honest mistake" thing.

jw

[von Lucke]

<blockquote>quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Joe Shaw:

Yeah if I were playing in a ladder (which I'm not) I would get pretty ticked off if I thought I was playing a double blind game only to find that my opponent was very familiar with it. That's one of the reasons I'm not playing in a ladder.

<hr></blockquote>

And how many times did he have to "randomly" generate this QB before he got such a stuningly one-sided set-up and map?

It's the whole "gee, this selection favors me so much I think I'll just keep it and send it out to everybody I can and see who bites" mentality that I find rather questionable...

[Silvio Manuel]

<blockquote>quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by von Lucke:

And how many times did he have to "randomly" generate this QB before he got such a stuningly one-sided set-up and map?

It's the whole "gee, this selection favors me so much I think I'll just keep it and send it out to everybody I can and see who bites" mentality that I find rather questionable...<hr></blockquote>

I was also sent one of these Setups. I have cancelled the game primarily because:

Dishonorable mistake: Playing several battles at once w/ the same setup is unsportsmanlike (to put it kindly). It is unfair to have foreknowledge of your opponents forces.

Honest mistakes: He said that the battle was Unrestricted, when it was actually Armor.He said that all other parameters were random, but has now admitted that he picked the rural/light trees/flat setting to suit the battle being Armor-heavy.

[Scipio]

<blockquote>quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Silvio Manuel:

I was also sent one of these Setups. I have cancelled the game primarily because:

Dishonorable mistake: Playing several battles at once w/ the same setup is unsportsmanlike (to put it kindly). It is unfair to have foreknowledge of your opponents forces.

Honest mistakes: He said that the battle was Unrestricted, when it was actually Armor.He said that all other parameters were random, but has now admitted that he picked the rural/light trees/flat setting to suit the battle being Armor-heavy.<hr></blockquote>

Silvio, if you know a way to randomly create a map, please let me know. AFAIK this is not possible, at least with the CM 1.12 that I own.

I wonder what would have been if the Allies had received three Pershings and five Jacksons.

[Scipio]

Can someone please lock this threat down?

Here is not the holy inquisition.

[Iron Chef Sakai]

This is the exact reaosn i won't play on a ladder. Captain Wacky, you could have consulted your opponent about your grip and worked something out quickly instead of posting an actual topic on here complaining about a battle to people that are'nt playing it.

Don't get me wrong i'm sure most of the people on the ladder are nice, but Capatin Wacky posted a classless and sneaky post. All he had to do was talk to his opponent and work out whatever. Oh and Wacky, those wer not impossible odds, improbably yes, nut not impossible for you to win, or mabe for you, but not for me. Victory is never automatic by any means.

It's realy cool that random people on hear are telling of some kid that they don't even know, about something they do not know as fact........true sign of wisdom right there, so much for the age old addage with age come wisdom.

I personaly would have played the game out, i play for fun, i would have liked to see what i could do, and have played games like that. Wacky, and i'm sure he is not alone is too caught up with winning to enjoy the game, therefor would for me, not be a fun opponent to play. I've won alot of games, and the games i have lost i have had just as much fun, i can admire others people tactics besdis my own. It's unfortunate that a small group of people with no self asteem can ruin ladder because they base their whole self worth on victory in a computer game.

[CMplayer]

<blockquote>quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Joe Shaw:

Yeah if I were playing in a ladder (which I'm not) ...<hr></blockquote>

Whuddaya mean? You play on the MBT ladder, right?

[Silvio Manuel]

<blockquote>quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Scipio:

Silvio, if you know a way to randomly create a map, please let me know. AFAIK this is not possible, at least with the CM 1.12 that I own.

I wonder what would have been if the Allies had received three Pershings and five Jacksons.<hr></blockquote>

The terrain thing was a more minor concern of mine, but what I was going on was that my opponent *said* that they were random...whether this was done via dice rolling...or some other automated feature similar to the BadCo's Endgame Randomizer (randomized the length of the battle).

If the Allies had rec'd 2 Pershing & 3 Jacksons....I'm sure there would have been no complaints....except for the fact that you can get neither in June 44, and that was another parameter he picked...

Not to knock the guy any more though, he has formally apologized to all opponent who played on that Setup. Let's let bygones be bygones.