Wild Bill's Rumblings of War AAR Thread

[Spanish Bombs]

As the German player in WCW and Duel at Dompiere, I can say that the planes definitely took a toll, not on tanks but certainly on the light armor. As far as counterbalances for the Germans, however, I think the multitude of flak vehicles were a pretty fair addition. At least I never had to worry about them shooting my own troops or not showing up at all...

One other Air-power related point, though - I did shoot down a plane in Dompiere. Among many other firsts for me in this tournament, and I couldn't tell until the AAR was available, but pretty cool nonetheless.

[ February 06, 2002, 03:37 PM: Message edited by: Spanish Bombs ]

[von Lucke]

Originally posted by von Lucke:

With my initial set-up, I placed my armor to the rear, in hull-down positions where all the hills on the German side of the map could be targeted on turn 1. With the exception of the Croc, which I placed as close to the base of the hill on the right as possible (I wanted to move it into a covered spot ASAP).

Originally posted by redeker:

Von Lucke, what choices did you have with the Croc? My Croc was outside a setup zone (and in the sights of that one PB), giving me the options of either leaving it where it was, or dragging it to one of the two setup zones (which were in the town and and straddling the road leading to it, IIRC).

I went back and checked: You're right, the Croc was fixed in place out of the setup zones (as was the engineer platoon). All I did was rotate it about 45deg --- my intention being to move it into cover behind the bushy ridge just off the road there. As it worked out, it ended up directly facing one of the 75mm bunkers, and that's all she wrote...

[gredeker]

Originally posted by von Lucke:

I went back and checked: You're right, the Croc was fixed in place out of the setup zones (as was the engineer platoon). All I did was rotate it about 45deg --- my intention being to move it into cover behind the bushy ridge just off the road there. As it worked out, it ended up directly facing one of the 75mm bunkers, and that's all she wrote...

That's what made the difference - you turned 45 degrees right and were facing direcly at the PB, and I turned 45 degrees left and gave him a perfect flank shot. Oh well...

[Wild Bill Wilder]

Hey Holien...

That nebulous nothing called balance will turn any man's hair gray or to fall out. In may case, both are true .

You get a feel for balance the more you do scenarios. Even though historically advancing or attacking forces are supposed to have 3-1 odds in their favor, in gaming it is not that way.

In most of mine it is between a 1.5 to a 2-1 advantage for the attacker.

One must consider terrain, quality of forces, time constraints, and weather conditions. Then there are more uncertain factors such as artillery and air power.

Eventually you'll come to a decision based primarily on testing it yourself. You'll have to play your own scenario (and its fun if it is a good one) a couple of times from both sides. Each time you fine tune it a bit until it appears to you that it is about even.

THEN, you send it off to folks who have not by now memorized it like you have and get their thoughts.

To put it simply, testing tells the tale. A scenario to be good, needs at least five testings by at least two different people to be sure that you are in the ball park.

I hope this helps...Wild Bill

[Wild Bill Wilder]

HCRE scenario has had some changes. I've read all comments and evaluated the scores. Based on that, I can see where some modifications were needed. So it has been tweaked a bit.

The work you did on the first three, DaD, RG, and RaR have proven very helpful.

Folks who have grabbed them from the Scenario Depot are generally very pleased with the battles.

Your sacrifice and blood have made all the tourney scenarios a little better for those who follow in your footsteps.

Again, I thank you for all of your comments and suggestions.

Wild Bill

[Holien]

Just for a bit of fun can we rate the scenarios.

1. Top Favorite.

2. Best Balanced.

3. Most Challenging for X. (Where X = side played).

All the above are subjective but it might prove interesting?

I think we can name the other games uncompleted as long as no discussion about them is undertaken.

Here are my selections.

1. Duel At D, Because it allows lots of possibilities and seems fairly balanced.

2. Ranville when played Double Blind.

3. High Cost when attacking as Allied when played Double Blind.

Just my thoughts...

[gredeker]

Mine would be:

1. Ranville.

2. Ranville double blind.

3. High Cost double blind as Allies.

[Wild Bill Wilder]

Now THIS is interesting indeed! Thanks fellas for sharing your thoughts in this way. And you give your reasons, even better...WB

[Wild Bill Wilder]

Sorry Holien,

I missed your note. I had to experiment with the AC a bit. I wish they had a setting for expert, regular, etc, which might give more of a guarantee of hitting the right target.

I have no idea of the formula Charle uses in the game to produce friendly vs enemy hits. In my personal experience, unless I have units close to the enemy, AC does not hurt me. Of course, not being quite sure just when they are going to pop in there is a big problem.

Having a FAO in the game that could better control the AC much as artillery spotters would be great. They were used extensively from the fall of 1944 on the front lines.

I never know till I test the scenario about three times. I get a kind of average of how they will work. I never could find a shortcut for this and so using them creates a lot of extra work for the designer.

Think twice about using them Holien and only if they have a significant bearing on the battle.

Wild Bill

[gredeker]

I just finished my AAR for HCRE last night. I found myself doing lots of "D'oh!" and "Man, I should've..." and "What was I thinking when I..." while watching the movies. That Firefly crew deserves a decoration - posthumous, unfortunately.

[Kingfish]

Just finishing up an excellent replay of 'Real guts' with CDIC. As the Americans I had the opportunity to try out a new, unorthodox strategy which has paid off for me. Although my casualties were heavy (it is after all a Wild Bill scenario and my opponent was CDIC) I did managed to secure and hold the objectives. A last minute gamey flag rush...eh, I mean counterattack by CDIC has left the outcome anyone's guess, but the final score wasn't our main concern anyway. We played for the enjoyment of the game, and I believe we got a good one in.

To anyone who is thinking of playing this one again as the Americans I suggest strongly to think outside the box when planning your strategy. This scenario hold many opportunities for each side to try new tactics, and a different approach will give you an entirely new (and exciting) game.

[CombinedArms]

Originally posted by Holien:

Just for a bit of fun can we rate the scenarios.

1. Top Favorite.

2. Best Balanced.

3. Most Challenging for X. (Where X = side played).

1. Kommerscheit--partly because it was my first victory after 4 defeats. Then I won the next two. So my luck turned on this one. I also just liked the situation and problems it posed.

2. Ranville? I can't believe I'm saying this because before I was complaining it was unbalanced v. Allies. But thinking about it I realize what a masterpiece of complex balancing it actually is.

3. 'Sounds in the Night' as Axis, played Double Blind. I've replayed this with greater success, but playing it double blind against Leonard Dickens was a scary experience. "Real Guts" as Allies is also a challenge against a good player, even if both have played it before.

[Capitalistdoginchina]

"Just finishing up an excellent replay of 'Real guts' with CDIC. As the Americans I had the opportunity to try out a new, unorthodox strategy which has paid off for me."

Kingfish, you forgot to mention that you lost

However, it was a great battle. You had me worried for quite a while, and with a little bit of good fortune you could have pulled it off. I enjoyed it very much. It was quite a challenge.

Incidentaly, my right flank pillbox racked up a very impressive kill tally, 9 vehicles destroyed including 2 M10's and 18 men killed. The pillbox survived to tell the story.

CDIC

[Holien]

CDIC can you send me the last turn and the password so I can see how the master placed his PB's.

Those PB's did sod all for me and I need to work out how better to place them for other games.

H

[Wild Bill Wilder]

Funny how a second look at a scenario can change your perspective of it. Good reports, gentlemen!

Wild Bill

[Capitalistdoginchina]

Holien,

AAR and password on its way to you. Kingfish decided to circumnavigate the pillbox and not try to assault it. The weakness of the Germans in this scenaio is the infantry, if the American attacker can take advantage of that (Like Kingfish did)good results can be abtained for the yanks.

Our final score was Axis 54 - Allies 40

It went down to the wire, my 2 Kitties were under heavy close infantry assault for 3 or 4 turns and the allies scored numerous hits with bazooka and rifle grenades - but the thick hide of my cats together with a little luck saved the day.

It was very close - and a great battle, Kingfish is a very competent commander.

CDIC

[Holien]

CDIC you are a gamey so and so...

Those Tigers would not dare do as they did. In my Game I pulled them off board when they reached such a situation as I did not want them to die.

(This was only done because of playing tourney and the need for points. This of course was the correct historica thing to do but in any other game they would have fought on and died. I wonder if we can get a scoring system for normal game play to encourage such decisions in none tourney games.)

You were truely lucky not to lose them and KF was remise in not having any Zooka crews nearby.

Without that action you would have lost as the flag would have been in KF's hands..

As for that PB he truely put a number on KF. What intrigues me is that it was niot taken out and did not smoke work on it. The Allied player gets quite a bit of arty and I am interested in how it survied so long...

H

[Capitalistdoginchina]

I never accuse anyone of being gamey in a .....game. Never have and never will, it is always a challenge to use whatever units you are given to do the job.

One could argue that taking the entire battalion of allied infantry, running them at sprint speed right up the center to my base flag from turn one is gamey, especially when one knows the strength (Read weakness) of the Axis defenders as we do in this scenario. But i will not do that, i saw it comming and reacted accordingly.

My Tigers got quite a kill tally of their own - first they thrust forward and advanced right up to the roadblock and wire, then they reversed to make a fighting retreat all the way back to my base flag which by that time was in enemy hands, my Tigers were surrounded. The allied infantry were chasing me all the way giving me some tense moments. Those Tigers sure reverse real slow in scattered trees

It was certainly not gamey - you only saw the last turn and the end screen AAR, not the entire battle.

Kingfish's tactic was to bypass the pillboxes and head for the flags - that is why the pillbox lived to the end and survived so long, a close assault was not attempted.

I am sure you were jesting with the gamey comment, but others may not read it that way. The battle was a tough one to play second time around because the allies can easily overwhelm the scant Axis infantry at the beginning if he rushes very quickly to the flags before the Axis reinforcements can arrive. This can only happen with prior knowledge of the scenario and enemy OOB. I don't think anyone would try that when playing blind. I did not help myself when one of my Wespe's knocked himself out with a HE round fired to close to himself either

Cheers

CDIC

[Kingfish]

You were truely lucky not to lose them and KF was remise in not having any Zooka crews nearby.

LoL, if you only knew!

Picture this: Turn 20. Both of CDIC's Tigers are located inside the scattered trees in front of the center hill. Both are buttoned up and without infantry support. I drop the remaining 20+ rounds of 105mm as smoke around the cats, then close assaulted them with 3 rifle platoons (total 7 rifle grenades), a platoon of Engineers (1 RG, 2 demos) and 2 zooks (8 rounds total).

By Turn 21 both of his cats are inside a cloud of 105mm smoke, visiblity is less than 10 meters, and are completely surrounded by my infantry. What followed was a storm of zook rounds, RGs, and ordinary grenades (for some reason the Engineers never used their demos).

Both cats survived the storm. All the zook rounds were used on one Tiger, scoring 3-4? direct hits. Numerous hits were also obtained by the other weapons, but none had any effect. I even managed to sneak in my last remaining Sherman to try for a flank shot, but he backed up behind smoke when the Tigers emerged out of the cloud.

It was an intense ending to an already exciting game. I know CDIC was sweating those last few turns

As for that PB he truely put a number on KF. What intrigues me is that it was niot taken out and did not smoke work on it. The Allied player gets quite a bit of arty and I am interested in how it survied so long...

I chose to ignore the PBs during the intial assault, as I was sure CDIC would have deployed a considerable amount of his resources in their defense. Instead I launched a concentrated infantry assault in the center, and used the 81mm mortars to create a smoke corridor in which my infantry would advance thru and into the rear.

The high number of vehicle kills for that PB is part my own stupidity, and part because the allied reinforcements arrive right in it's crosshairs, a subject I discussed earlier in this thread. I hope Wild Bill has fixed that in the released version.

[Capitalistdoginchina]

By Turn 21 both of his cats are inside a cloud of 105mm smoke, visiblity is less than 10 meters, and are completely surrounded by my infantry. What followed was a storm of zook rounds, RGs, and ordinary grenades (for some reason the Engineers never used their demos).

The funny thing was i had my smoke graphics turned off (My PC sometimes hangs when panning through smoke) and i could not understand why i was surrounded by men so quickly and why i could not target them just meters away from me

It was an intense ending to an already exciting game. I know CDIC was sweating those last few turns

Sweating is not descriptive enough I was praying for devine intervention - my prayers were answered by lady luck herself

My Tigers were reversing (Keeping my front armour to the bazookas) all the way back to my base flag fighting off infantry and zooks, i lost count of the number of hits and the number of those "Thingymajigs" that fly out the hatch at infantry during close assaults.

It certainly made for an entertaining and exciting battle.

CDIC

[Holien]

CDIC, As you know the Welsh and the Scots have fun at one anothers expense...

(Mind you I don't take cheap shots at the Italians, unlike some people around here. (That is, if you can find one to take a shot at... Heh Heh Heh...)(a cheap shot but one I could not resist....))

It sounds like you have two jammy Tiggers... Bouncy Bouncy Bouncy bounce ohhh what a wonderful thing a Tigger is fu fu fun.....

As for mr Kentucky Fried Fish tut tut.... A full on charge....

That is a good approach for the Allied player as the Germans are in sheer poo if that happens. Same thing goes for Ranville as well. IMO.

Anyway I await your return on Thursday.

As for Gamey, it is a game and I accept as such even if people charge me with there dismounted vehicle crews...

P.s. Tom getr out of bed and send me a turn I am bored... I need to finish that crew off.

[ February 24, 2002, 12:35 PM: Message edited by: Holien ]

[gredeker]

Originally posted by Holien:

CDIC can you send me the last turn and the password so I can see how the master placed his PB's.

Those PB's did sod all for me and I need to work out how better to place them for other games.

H

CDIC,

I'd like that final map and password also. I think I've come up with some good positions for the PB's, but I'd like to compare it with what you did.

[gredeker]

OK everyone...

We can now talk about the odyssey that is "Sounds in the Night".

How did people set up their defenses? Their attacks? Any notable encounters during the scenario?

FWIW, I was defending Americans. I set up a tripwire of half-squads, crews and extra HQ's the entire width of the board (because I'm paranoid during night scenarios) but generally in front of the bocage, with the MLR generally 20-30m behind the bocage in the grain. I had some great luck early in the game, and my TRPs were placed in pretty good spots.

Warren "ran the gauntlet" down the road with a StuG and a platoon of HT's - surviving all the .50 bursts and bazooka rounds thrown their way - and pushed through to the rear large VL, which was largely undefended. A comic cross-country chase ensued, with an M10 and a Sherman chasing the StuG at a range of ~100m, but the vehicles couldn't see one another because of the vision range being only 50m. Luckily the chase was resolved favorably, as the StuG turned to face his attackers while he was still in some brush. This slowed down his rotation just enough for the M10 to catch up and brew up the StuG from a range of 9m(!) while the StuG still had another 30 degrees of rotation to go to bring his gun to bear on the M10.

[wadepm]

Here is how my game with Bertram ended near the left rear flag. One more turn and I was gone! The right rear flag had about the same situation.

[wadepm]

Sorry guys, it seems my last post has killed off this thread and it is slowly sinking into the depths.....