Suomi vai englanti? Vain suomalaisille!

[Stixx]

I'm totally against a .pdf

It's the one thing that stops people obtaining illegal copy's of the game.

Well it doesn't "Stop" them but it stops them getting a copy of the manual!.

Just my 2 cents worth...

[Jev.Dk]

Originally posted by Big Time Software:

Mattias,

It is not that other countries are LESS important than Finland to us, but that Finland shows a lot of promise for CMBB. As is sales to Finland are higher than Sweden by about 1/3, 3x higher than Norway, and 2x higher than Denmark (my former countrymen ).

Steve

Huh former countrymen?? just out of curiosity, do you mean Denmark?? Have you lived here?

Jev The Jut

Aka Fluffy The Sheep

[Tero]

Originally posted by Big Time Software:

But what if the translation was excellent? That is the only kind of translations we do

If you outsource it you are liable to get a woman who can not tell the difference between a mortar and a mortar.

Unlike a dubbed movie there would be no loss to have things translated.

We are not like the French or the Germans. Or even the British and the Americans.

And since Finnish is not a Romanic language the terms would not be anywhere near what they are in English even in spelling. If the traslation is done REALLY properly that is. There is enough Finglish about in the games magazines already. For exampe AT is widely used in the rags instaed of the proper Finnish abreviaton PST. Propably because they are translating straight from English magazines. Reading the game in Finnish would not be a good thing since we would always be wondering what the term is in English.

Or are you trying to oust us from the board because we would be using the Finnish term instead of the English term and nobody but us would know what we are talking about.

Tero, a PDF is one option. However, there is a substantial cost to translate the manual and game elements. So if no Finn really cares about it we just assume skip the expense of both translation and printing.

From a marketing point of view I too do not think you would boost sales by localizing the game. On the contrary, it might drive prospective buyers away.

[ April 29, 2002, 03:44 AM: Message edited by: tero ]

[Munter]

Customers here in Finland take it for granted that games are mostly sold in English only, but that's OK. We have long since realized that skills in foreign languages are not an option, but a must. That's a reason why TV-series and movies from abroad are not dubbed, but come with subtitles (in movies, both in finnish and swedish simultaniously).

I don't think the sales figure would rise if the game came with a manual in Finnish, thank you for the thought, but the best marketing has been a discrete recommendation of the product to one's closest friends ("The first one is always free").

In my case this has backfired. I haven't seen my copy of the game in 6 long weeks since I let one of my buddies give it a shot.

M

[DrAlimantado]

Originally posted by tero:

From a marketing point of view I too do not think you would boost sales by localizing the game. On the contrary, it might drive prospective buyers away.

Heck, I am not even close to being Finnish, but I must say that Tero has a point. I am very doubtful that localizing the games in Scandinavia, (or as it is in this case: Finland) is a good thing from a marketíng point of view. Localizing is an annoying trend that came a couple of years ago. My guess is that it began in France & Germany, and then it spilled over to other parts of Europe. Unfortunately it has brought more trouble in general than benefit to the few consumers who need a localized version. Strange translated manuals is one thing, (they can be funny though), but the problem of localized patches is much worse. The horror example is Fallout 2, where they had a generic EU patch, which always lagged 2 or 3 months behind the original patch.

Localized games is a new trend that, at least from my point of view, the game consumers have not asked for, (nothing directed against BTS, just blathering in general), Most people I know go out of their way to avoid buying a localized version by mistake.

Here is a smiley to compensate for my negative vibes

Dr Grumpy

[Hurricane]

I also have to agree that Finns don´t want a localised version. As tero pointed out, it makes communication harder ("My PST gun was destroyed!" "-What? Do you mean AT gun???" "-I´ve no idea what you are talking about. My manual clearly says PST!").

My experience is that localised versions are just a pain in the ass. For example, many people have a Finnsh version of Windows, which means trouble when downloading all kinds of hotfixes and patches and when you search the net for advice. "What Explorer?" "-Did you mean Resurssienhallinta?"

[Jarmo]

A tough question really. :confused:

I'm sure it'd help many potential gamers to have the manual translated. In "normal" games it doesn't really matter, as almost every "normal" gamer reads english at least passably. But CMBB would also attract audience from other groups. This has been clearly shown in the frequent polls in this forum. The age group playing CM is downright perverse for a game.

Finns of 40+ years generally have considerably less skill in english. Back then germany was a commonly studied language. (Instead of english, swedish has always been a must).

Personally, I'd prefer an all english version. A translated manual and english game (the common way) would just lead to problems. I certainly wouldn't like an "all in finnish" game.

If the game comes in shops in a package form, a finnish cover would more likely hurt than boost sales. There have been a few games like that, you'd be likely to assume it's a finnish-made game, and therefore crap. A finnish war game would suggest something done by museum society with a budget of 1000 eurobucks.

[Munter]

Originally posted by Big Time Software:

As is sales to Finland are higher than Sweden by about 1/3, 3x higher than Norway, and 2x higher than Denmark (my former countrymen ).

Just of curiosity, do these figures represent the total sales of the game or the sales per capita?

Now, couple this to the fact that Finns are apparently CRAZY about their war with the Soviets (both parts) and a localization into Finnish becomes quite interesting for us from a sales standpoint.

Our pride was never rooted out as it happened in West-Germany. As a matter of fact, it helped us to keep the Soviet supported communist party outside the government after the war(s). WW2 for our part ended as late as 10 years ago as the last remnants of the restrictions in our foreign policy, constituted in the peace treaty in Paris 1948, were degraded to toilet paper. Despite of what was previously (60-70's) taught in the schools by the new generation of left-wing activists in their attempt to re-write history, our parents and grandparents filled in with the omitted facts about the war. A major asset for those who were showing a further interest in the subject were the public libraries that never bowed for any attempts of censorship.

My return to the Karelian Isthmus to retake my late grandmother's farm is only a CMBB away. Now, get back to work!

M

[ April 29, 2002, 07:53 AM: Message edited by: Munter ]

[Tero]

What would the CMBB called in Finnish anyway since we did not officially take part in the Barbarossa and our troops were never pushed back all the way to Berlin ?

Here are some abominations for you to vomit over:

TTKV, Taistelu Tehtävä: Kannakselta Viipuriin, translation Combat Mission: From the Isthmus to Viipuri (which is in the Isthmus anyway so the name is illogical) ?

TTBM, Taistelu Tehtävä: Barentsinmereltä Mustallemerelle, translation Combat Mission: From the Barets Sea to the Black Sea ?

TTIR, Taistelu Tehtävä: Itärintama, translation Combat Mission: Eastern Front

TTJS, Taistelu Tehtävä: Jatkosota, translation Combat Mission Continuation War

Incidentaly, would Finnish made scenario and order text crap out in non-Scandinavian machines if they included ÅÄÖ's ?

[-Havermeyer-]

Originally posted by Big Time Software:

The real nature of the question is to ask how many Finns are "über Finns" and if they, or anybody they know, has ever destroyed a T-34 with nothing more than a toothpick and a stick of bubblegum. We are just trying to seperate fact from fiction before we go coding up stuff

Steve[/QB]

Again you belittle the Finnish nation by assuming they would require both a toothpick and bubblegame to knockout a T-34.

[Munter]

Originally posted by -Havermeyer-:

Again you belittle the Finnish nation by assuming they would require both a toothpick and bubblegame to knockout a T-34.

Bah, lieutenant Arvo Pentti (Holder of the Mannerheim Cross, 2:nd Class) used only a couple handfuls of mud when he captured a Russian tank in '41. Toothpicks were used by scented snobs.

M

[Kallimakhos]

Originally posted by Jarmo:

, you'd be likely to assume it's a finnish-made game, and therefore crap. A finnish war game would suggest something done by museum society with a budget of 1000 eurobucks.

??? Why would you assume Finnish-made games to be crap? Max Payne sucks? Nowadays one can see good games being made everywhere.

OT: There was some time a go lot of talk about a Finnish modern infantry wargame, any news on that?

PS: Like somebody said, there could be many potential buyers for a Finnish localized game in 40+ group, but propably not enough to make it worthwhile. Personally if I had a choice, I would choose a localized game, even though it could possibly cause some problems that have already been pointed out.

[Das Boot]

Originally posted by Munter:

Bah, lieutenant Arvo Pentti (Holder of the Mannerheim Cross, 2:nd Class) used only a couple handfuls of mud when he captured a Russian tank in '41. Toothpicks were used by scented snobs.

I take it MacGyver is Finnish then?

[DrAlimantado]

Originally posted by Das Boot:

I take it MacGyver is Finnish then?

Considering his stylish looks I would say yes.

M

[nipa]

Originally posted by Kallimakhos:

OT: There was some time a go lot of talk about a Finnish modern infantry wargame, any news on that?

Jääkäri

Seems totally unrealistic, there are several screenshots of finns being shot to death. Unless they're shot at by other finns...

[Jarmo]

Why would you assume Finnish-made games to be crap? Max Payne sucks? Nowadays one can see good games being made everywhere.

Not finnish made as such. Rather something with finnish writing on top, maybe in style of "sotiemme sankarit". Note that none of the finnish made games tries to show themselves as a finnish product. All english covers.

[Tero]

Originally posted by nipa:

Seems totally unrealistic, there are several screenshots of finns being shot to death. Unless they're shot at by other finns...

That too.

For the people who do NOT read Finnish: the site sports the term screenshotit in the site navigation, which is easy enough to translate. However, the proper Finnish term would be Kuvakaappaukset.

Just goes to show why there are differences between a proper translation and a proper translation. :mad:

[Tero]

Originally posted by Jarmo:

Not finnish made as such. Rather something with finnish writing on top, maybe in style of "sotiemme sankarit". Note that none of the finnish made games tries to show themselves as a finnish product. All english covers.

Then there are companies like Nokia. The name points towards the East, but the company home is not THAT far East.

[Viimeinen Talvi]

I have just played Harry potter game which is dubbed in finnish. The gaming experience wasn't such bad what I expected. So, if you really want to make a game in finnish, why not but it won't boost sales.

[damixu]

My vote goes for having English game and manual only. All potential CMBB buyers in Finland are more like "hard-core" gamers and those peeps want their games (and manuals) be in English.

Please do yourself a favour and do not waste money and resources on translating CMBB. Use those saved cash for giving hefty discount for all Finnish buyers

PS. This might been asked before, but are you going to release CMBB for retail sales in Finland? If so, can I get my copy much faster from BF website than waiting it to come to local store shelves?

[Mattias]

I'm willing to bet that if you manage to make the box stand out as a "Finland friendly" product you will get more buyers.

One way is to translate the game, and be sure to slap a Finnish flag on it. This will draw attention to the game and give it a shot at catching people who would otherwise have passed it by. "Elderly", "juveniles" and parents being obvious target groups.

Another option would be a box cover that sports a prominent Finnish national symbol like the flag or the Finnish lion. The heraldic shield with the Lion standing on a scimitar, for example, is suitably martial and stylish.

One current example is the Swedish flag incorporated into the cover of Europa Universalis. I don't have any numbers to show but I know for sure that I was not the only one that noted it because of this particular detail, insignificant as it might seem.

--

In any event, CM:BB would well served by a better box cover than that of CM:BO. Though colourful and relevant it was pretty bland and failed to convey the, well, revolutionary and exhilarating playing experience that awaits inside the box.

M.

[illo]

Rally Trophy is great sim and it's completely in finnish when bought in finland.(Except from title)

I found that very good choice.

I don't really mind if CMBO comes only english tho. I will buy it anyway.

Btw. I don't think there is any problem with designations. And I REALLY hope finnish units will have their correct names like most german ones have now.(Some exceptions in CMBO like Lüchs and Königstiger ) So please don't turn PST or PaK into ATG. Thanks.

[ May 02, 2002, 02:07 PM: Message edited by: illo ]

[Tero]

Originally posted by Mattias:

I'm willing to bet that if you manage to make the box stand out as a "Finland friendly" product you will get more buyers. One way is to translate the game, and be sure to slap a Finnish flag on it.

I doubt it.

Making it "Finland friendly" is VERY tricky. Take the very flag you mention. You can not display Nazi imagery in Germany. Simple. In Finland the swastika is still in the army heraldry. Our president wears a medal which is adorned with the swastika to formal occasions.

You must not forget and you must take into consideration different geo-political histories. For example: the prevailing Anglo-American POV is Finland was allied with Germany. Here in Finland you never ever simply refer to Finland as an Axis ally. Never. The political horse trading was so complex and it has been so prominently represented as a prime aspect in our national survival. We are not ashamed of the fact we had relations with the Germans. Going over our heads and simply stating we were Axis allies anyway is insultive.

So, when making the localization for Finland a Finnish swastika is almost a must. And the terminology must be ..... I think sanitized is the appropriate term .... to reflect and respect our POV on some aspects of the "truth". Yet the "sanitazion" should not be represented as a PC act. That is condesceding.

Yet, one "Finland - German Ally" related remark slips in and there will be hell to pay. That can do more damage to the sales that the localization is worth otherwise.

This will draw attention to the game and give it a shot at catching people who would otherwise have passed it by. "Elderly", "juveniles" and parents being obvious target groups.

The elderly: do they have the know-how to operate the machine ?

The juveniles: where is the instant gratification ? Boring -> uninstall.

Parents- the mum: my son will NOT play such violent and war glorifying games. Pop: sorry son, I have no time for it (to play it with you, I have so many PBEM's going on we can not share the machine.)

Ceterum censeo: CMBB should not be localized to Finnish.

[ May 02, 2002, 05:04 PM: Message edited by: tero ]

[illo]

Here in Finland you never ever simply refer to Finland as an Axis ally. Never. The political horse trading was so complex and it has been so prominently represented as a prime aspect in our national survival. We are not ashamed of the fact we had relations with the Germans. Going over our heads and simply stating we were Axis allies anyway is insultive.

Here in finland... (there goes your never)

I would say we were allied with germans and I can not see any insult in anyone saying that.

Politics are always compex, but it won't change a thing.

Finns were attacking to soviet union together with germans. That is a fact. Plans for attack were made well in time. Simultaneously finns were in touch with OKW officers knowing their plans for Barbarossa. Soviet bombings were just good "cause" to start our attack, it would have started anyways. Well I think most people in finland are well aware finland was german ally, especially people who lived back then. I've never heard anybody taking that as an insult. Most are/were glad that germans helped us.

[ May 02, 2002, 05:53 PM: Message edited by: illo ]

[illo]

sry double post.

[ May 02, 2002, 05:45 PM: Message edited by: illo ]