Suomi vai englanti? Vain suomalaisille!

[Mattias]

Eh, you are not exactly bending over backwards trying to understand my post Tero, are you..

I was thinking about a simple modern day Finnish flag slapped on the box or the plastic wrapper. That is something that does draw attention to it. It says, this is a game made with a Finnish audience in mind, go ahead and take a look, it's easy...

It never even entered my mind that there would be issues of "historical" and "geo-political" nature. Apart from adapting to German law, CM is not taking any particular standpoint with regards to guilt and blame. And if you think being called a "German Ally" is bad, imagine what it is like to be called "German".

My point is that as long as CM keeps on providing a realistic backdrop/simulation there will be no cause for hot blood. National legislations must be provided for but beyond that I am hard pressed to see what could get into CM:BO that hasn't already been featured in CM:BB.

Sonderkomandos, Commissars shooting their own men and all sides mutilating their opponents is outside the scope of the game after all...

--

My point regarding customers that normally do not buy war games is that there needs to be something drawing their attention for a while, in order for CM to have a chance at changing their preconceptions of the game.

If you decide in advance only to market your product to only one section of the market you are unnecessarily limiting yourself. Your tactics need to be cost efficient of course but it is a fact that one of the main reasons CM:BO was so successful was because it managed to widen the appeal of a wargame.

But there are thousands and thousands of customers out there who still do not know how much they would like it. These are the people, big, small, young and old that needs a little help finding CM:BB.

M.

[Auggy]

Orignal posted by tero

The juveniles: where is the instant gratification ? Boring -> uninstall.

How do you know this? I have several cousins and friends that i'm sure of that would be willing to play this game if they knew more about it. (including me) So where do you get this?

[Tuomas]

Hummm... Tero is strangely on the edge with this one. I voted for a Finnish manual, but I am beginning to think that maybe you should go all the way and translate the whole game.

I think that every Finnish player who has bought CMBO will buy CMBB. But I also think that you get more sales if the game is in Finnish. There are many who can't buy it online. For example lack of a credit card, those aren't very common here in Finland, or for simply lack of trust to Internet commerce. So having the game available on store shells should increase sales significantly.

There are also few big strategy fans writing to finnish game/computer magazines. I read about CMBO the first time in July 2000 from one of these mags and they were saying already that the next part is planned to include Finnish troops. That certainly got me interested. Could you imagine how much more attention would the game get if you could mention that it is also awailable in Finnish? This would be a great way to say "You are important to us".

And a part of those who say "No Finnish translation" say that because they fear that it would be done poorly. Of course many people will be pissed if they buy the game and can't understand it, but as Steve pointed out BTS has a record of doing things right. And I suppose that the game would not be available on the stores at the same time as directly from Battlefront site so you could run the translated version through a few sensors before it hits the selves if you are conserned about the translation.

And about the Finnish swastika. I don't see the relevance here. The swastika was used on tanks and on airplanes and they ofcourse are out of scope. I don't think that you could possibly confuse the Finnish tank version for the Nazi one, the arms are too short not to mention it stands upright. Anyway the box art will be important as Mattias pointed out. Maybe some Finns advancing in open formation or maybe a StuG with logs ambushing some T-34s. Some kind of national symbols should be visible also.

In conclusion I think that there is a clear market for a totally Finnish game. There are many players who just want to play few remaches against the Russians every now and then, they just want to kick some Russian ass and the TacAI should suffice for that (maybe they try out a few PBEM but then they would notice that you can do something else than just run from an ambush to another). With a Finnish game and few good articles about the game in local mags I think the game would sell much better in the Finnish market, especially in this casual player group.

Having said that I do not need a Finnish version (maybe as a gift for my friends but not for my own use) I am completely satisfied in the English version.

-TNT-

[ May 02, 2002, 06:50 PM: Message edited by: Tuomas ]

[M.K.P Huusko]

CMBB suomeksi!? Ei helvetissä!!!

Please, do not localize CMBB!

I believe, that majority of those who will buy CMBB (including me) would just HATE a translated version, even if it was a "perfect" translation.

Every single person I've told about plans to localize CMBB, reacted VERY negatively about it. (Like, groaning in agony, gnawing the edge of a table, and vowing never to buy such an abomination.)

I sincerely believe, that making a localized version would be a great waste of resources, as most gamers would still buy an english game, leaving the finnish ones gathering dust on the shelves.

Thinking that a translated game would attract a broader audience is false. As previous posters have stated, finnish gamers can read english adequately. Those who can't (older people) don't play computer games, even if they were in ANY language.

Don't make a mistake BTS. Finns don't like nor want translated games.

[Tero]

Originally posted by illo:

Here in finland... (there goes your never)

I would say we were allied with germans and I can not see any insult in anyone saying that.

When was the last time you saw the term liittolainen used (in print) when describing the Finnish relations with the Germans during the war ? Liittolainen is not equal with aseveli.

You may not be insulted when talking in English. And that is the catch. When you are using different languages you switch also the cultural frame of reference (and more).

Our four year old son asked the other day what koira syö koiraa (dog eat dog) means. It had been used in one of the localized cartoons. I could not explain the consept it without using the proper Finnish analogy ihminen on ihmiselle susi (homo hominem lupus - see, I can not translate THAT into English verbatim without switching the analogy or writing a two page essey on it. ).

And that is the kind of sloppy translation I totally and absolutely abhor. Technical terms relatively are easy to get right. But the thing is even the terms infer minutely different nuances in their usage when you are using the proper native term in ist own language. If you go deep enough you will find you may not be able to use the native terms because they also entail embedded different tactical and doctrinal thinking that can not be accomodated in the programming.

Politics are always compex, but it won't change a thing.

Well, that is the case in the Anglo-American tradition. Unfortunately you are hard pressed to find this is the case when you are examining the Finnish tradition.

Take the recent picture book on Finnish armour by Keskinen and Stenman. The Finnish captions use the old Finnish names for places in the ceded areas. The English captions use the current Russian names for these same places. Would you use the current names when talking in Finnish ? They did not. Neither would I. But they chose to use the Russian names when the translation was made. Why do you think they did that ?

[Tero]

Originally posted by Mattias:

Eh, you are not exactly bending over backwards trying to understand my post Tero, are you..

The damn back has been acting up lately.

It never even entered my mind that there would be issues of "historical" and "geo-political" nature.

Translating a manual for your car is easy. Trying to create the proper ambiance to get the mood right is easy. When you are doing it for a fantasy RPG. Then try to do the same for a historical SIMULATION. You get the markings on the machines right easily. This means even the German version of CMBB should have the Finnish tanks using blue swastikas. Wanna bet the Germans will see them running around in the current blue and white cocard taken up after the war instead of the proper swastika ?

Apart from adapting to German law, CM is not taking any particular standpoint with regards to guilt and blame. And if you think being called a "German Ally" is bad, imagine what it is like to be called "German".

Yes. It is easy to keep it focused and limited when there are really no grey areas.

Sonderkomandos, Commissars shooting their own men and all sides mutilating their opponents is outside the scope of the game after all...

Hmmmmmmm...... Soviet partisans are in. And they carry the stigma of war criminals here in Finland.

My point regarding customers that normally do not buy war games is that there needs to be something drawing their attention for a while, in order for CM to have a chance at changing their preconceptions of the game.

If you decide in advance only to market your product to only one section of the market you are unnecessarily limiting yourself. Your tactics need to be cost efficient of course but it is a fact that one of the main reasons CM:BO was so successful was because it managed to widen the appeal of a wargame.

But there are thousands and thousands of customers out there who still do not know how much they would like it. These are the people, big, small, young and old that needs a little help finding CM:BB.

Very true. But then there is the question of price. Would you actually buy Xbox just to try out the game they are hypeing up the machine with ?

[Tero]

Originally posted by Sir Augustus:

How do you know this? I have several cousins and friends that i'm sure of that would be willing to play this game if they knew more about it. (including me) So where do you get this?

Tell you a story: we have a biweekly playing session with friends (all mid/late-30's of age). CMBO is out as a hot seat on one machine. We have set up LAN parties. Even then CMBO LAN game is not an option when picking a game. PS and PS2 are what we use. Why ? Because they allow the instant gratification of trashing your friend, many times, over the period of time it takes to set up and play out even the shortest of CM games.

I have exposed my friends to CMBO but even having PG and SP under their belt they have not warmed up to it.

[ May 03, 2002, 01:56 AM: Message edited by: tero ]

[Tero]

Originally posted by Tuomas:

So having the game available on store shells should increase sales significantly.

But that does not require the game be localized.

There are also few big strategy fans writing to finnish game/computer magazines.

All two of them (Pelit and Mikrobitti magazines). Any other magazines ?

but as Steve pointed out BTS has a record of doing things right.

CMBO has almost as many versions as NT4 has service packs. Yet I do not hear anybody saying Microsoft has a record of doing things right.

No disrespect intended.

I just want to point out that the localization trend started out in France and Germany to cater to their needs has no real foundation in Finland. They tried out dubbing the Bold and the Beautiful. That experiment went really well. I do not mind reading the subtitles to my sons when watching cartoons. They pick up both Finnish and English like that. Now the global Disney productions say there is a need to dub all of their cartoons. Yet the original versions draw as much people in as the dubbed ones. I know many people choose not to go and see a movie just because it says PUHUMME SUOMEA in the brochure. They ask WHY ? and walk on by.

And about the Finnish swastika. I don't see the relevance here. The swastika was used on tanks and on airplanes and they ofcourse are out of scope.

Not if you plan on having them in the all versions of the game.

I don't think that you could possibly confuse the Finnish tank version for the Nazi one, the arms are too short not to mention it stands upright.

Please do a little check around diffrent Finnish sites on military history. All sites displaying it have posted disclaimers explaining the origins of the Finnish swastika. You know the difference. So do other Finns. But most of the people are not Finns. And they have not gotten the Finnish upbringing and they have not been weened on the Finnish experience.

Anyway the box art will be important as Mattias pointed out. Maybe some Finns advancing in open formation

Which would not the way they actually advance in the game.

or maybe a StuG with logs ambushing some T-34s.

Missing the first shot.

Some kind of national symbols should be visible also.

The swastika on the Stug ? What if some foreighner sees it ? We would make the BBC news for sure. Finland would get free publicity we so desperately need.

In conclusion I think that there is a clear market for a totally Finnish game.

I disagree.

There are many players who just want to play few remaches against the Russians every now and then, they just want to kick some Russian ass and the TacAI should suffice for that

And when they repeatedly get their arses handed over to them at Tali-Ihantala how soon do you think Keltainen Pörssi would be filled with "Myydään: vähän käytetty TTXX" adds ?

With a Finnish game and few good articles about the game in local mags I think the game would sell much better in the Finnish market, especially in this casual player group.

I hope and trust BTS will not have to resort to bribing the journos to write up good articles on the game just to get the word out.

I think all the efforts to localize the game to Finland are better spent improving the game.

[PawBroon]

My 2 cents eventhough I do lack in the Finnish business.

When CMBO was translated in France, I couldn't bear myself to play it.

Really.

I just can't stomach the longer labels.

The few errors.

All those things that were not mandatory since I was playing the game already.

For most French, a localized version meant they were OBLIGED to use the stock Interface and Menu Orders.

Not Deanco's GunMetal or Clipboard.

Not likely to use Trakus' upcoming ones...

They had to wait for LONG before some of us Frogs translated Deanco's Clipboard so that Orders could be read in French.

And even when it happened, each patch had to be localized before being applyied or the Move, Detail Hits and some such would then be back in English.

Finnish or not, my view is that a game designed in English is best played in English.

Just from a strict MODing standpoint.

Labels that are tailored to be read in English when you buy you're troops or navigate the Interface can't be translated in most of our Europeans lingo (most of them being longer word for word) without some glitches.

Now I'm no Finn so don't mind me.

[Hurricane]

Originally posted by PawBroon:

Labels that are tailored to be read in English when you buy you're troops or navigate the Interface can't be translated in most of our Europeans lingo (most of them being longer word for word) without some glitches.

Now I'm no Finn so don't mind me.

Very good point. Finnsh uses many extremely long words (just one example: tank = panssarivaunu), so a good translation is not enough. It would probably mean a redesign of the layout, too. And, as you mention, it would mean hell for MODders.

But a localised box (in the case the game is sold on the store shelves) could actually be a very good bet, IMHO.

[Munter]

Originally posted by Hurricane:

But a localised box (in the case the game is sold on the store shelves) could actually be a very good bet, IMHO.

That would be a good idea. Not to translate the game, the manual nor the text on the cover, but simply to put an authentic wartime photo from the Finnish military archives on the box. THAT would certainly draw people's attention, first to the game and secondly to the fact that there is a foreign company somewhere that has noticed us.

Flattering without ruining the game.

M

(edited for grammatical reasons, again)

[ May 03, 2002, 05:24 AM: Message edited by: Munter ]

[Tero]

Originally posted by Munter:

THAT would certainly draw people's attention, first to the game and secondly to the fact that there is a foreign company somewhere that has noticed us.

Flattering without ruining the game.

Guys ! Lets not go totally overboard here.

The box art idea is good. Propably also the cheapest one.

A clear sign a foreign company has noticed us and is flattering us would be to release the game in Finland first, even before it was available on the net.

[ May 03, 2002, 05:39 AM: Message edited by: tero ]

[Mattias]

Gee you are a barrel of laughs Tero ..

Instead of picking on details all day long please consider the wider perspective. Your input is valid insofar as BTS asking the forum what "you" think about a Finnish version.

But..

What bugs me is the way you, seemingly, go out of your way to ridicule the position of other members and, in this case, the general public.

Your opinion is duly noted and arguing with others is one of the functions of this forum. You, however, are not doing much to further a dialog. Seemingly preferring to resort to argumentative sniping at anyone who thinks differently and not bothering much with trying to understand the way others perceive the issue.

Your reply to Tuomas for example, is bordering to the ridiculous in this respect...

--

M.

[Tero]

Originally posted by Mattias:

Your reply to Tuomas for example, is bordering to the ridiculous in this respect...

Since you are not a Finn some of the finer nuances are bound to escape you.

I trust you are not aware there is an offical government plan here in Finland to further the image of the country and to make Finland better known abroad. Last time I checked (years ago) it was the duty of MEK (Matkailun Edistämiskeskus - State Turism board) to execute this plan.

In case you have not noticed Santa Claus has accompanied our president in numerous state visits to further this cause. This is why getting adverse publicity abroad for publicly displaying icons that some people think is unquestionably unholy and unpure is something the people concerned with the image Finland has abroad will not look upon too kindly.

Yes, we are a bit sensitive about the picture we give out abroad.

As to my reply to Tuomas being ridiculous:

- There are only a few notable Finnish language gaming magazines in Finland. Pelit is the most important PC gaming magazine. Mikrobitti is its sister publication, focused more on other aspects of computing. I am not aware other gaming PC magazine of repute. The rest I know of are console magazines.

- Steve saying they have a record of doing things right: Well, he who maketh absolutely no mistakes shall be granted the privilege of throwing the first stone at me. And if you read Steves original remark at least I detect a healthy amount of selfirony in it.

- the Finnish swastika and how relevant it is: if it is not included in the original game but you have to MOD it to get it then the localization is not IMO true and thus incomplete.

- Keltainen Pörssi is the top Finnish buy-and-sell paper

- IMO CMBO/BB is not the kind of game a casual player (what that means I do not know) would pick as his second or even third choice when looking for some good time.

For the record: I appologise to Tuomas if I have been unreasonably sarcastic in my reply and offended his feelings.

[Mattias]

A) Finland has nothing to be ashamed about with regards to the presentation of reality in CM:BB. If the Finns feel bad about the continuation war it is a fart in the universe compared to the Germans do about WWII, and CM:BO has done fine there ones the legal requirement has been fulfilled. I too come from a country with a fetish for self flagellation, so there is no need to go all national.

A great number of people request localized versions of games, that is why there are localized versions of games. Obviously, naturally and absolutely it is a matter of cost effectiveness if CM:BB should be one of them. But there is a market for them, denying that is futile.

C) I am not questioning your knowledge in details, I am reacting to your apparent unwillingness to extend a modicum of understanding to other posters and solely basing your responses on your own perspective.

--

M.

[ May 03, 2002, 11:55 AM: Message edited by: Mattias ]

[DrAlimantado]

Originally posted by tero:

Well, he who maketh absolutely no mistakes shall be granted the privilege of throwing the first stone at me.

*DrA picks up a brick and throws at Tero*

*SMACK!*

*DrA strolls away whisteling 'Going down to Texas'*

Sorry couldn't pass that opportiunity. All in good love.

M

[ May 03, 2002, 09:48 AM: Message edited by: DrAlimantado ]

[Juha Keratar]

Tero:

Yes, Pelit is just about the only serious gaming magazine in Finland, but it really carries a _lot_ of weight when it comes to promoting good games by reviews, perhaps exactly for that reason.

One example: King of Dragon Pass is an indie game produced by A-Sharp. Pelit reviewed it in early '00, ranked it very high. As a result, sales really soared, when compared to other countries - A-Sharp confirmed that Finland was a clear peak in sales.

Now, the magazine has reviewed Combat Mission _twice_ so far - once when it came out, now again when the boxed version hit the stores. I know a lot of people that aren't hardcore strategy gamers, but have bought the game now when it's available without credit card.

-Lunael

[Kallimakhos]

Originally posted by Juha Keratar:

Tero:

Yes, Pelit is just about the only serious gaming magazine in Finland, but it really carries a _lot_ of weight when it comes to promoting good games by reviews, perhaps exactly for that reason.

One example: King of Dragon Pass is an indie game produced by A-Sharp. Pelit reviewed it in early '00, ranked it very high. As a result, sales really soared, when compared to other countries - A-Sharp confirmed that Finland was a clear peak in sales.

Now, the magazine has reviewed Combat Mission _twice_ so far - once when it came out, now again when the boxed version hit the stores. I know a lot of people that aren't hardcore strategy gamers, but have bought the game now when it's available without credit card.

-Lunael

Good example. Actually I seem to remember The King of Dragon Pass got a very high ranking both in Mikrobitti and Pelit, and consequently I was one of the buyers. The majority of top ten sellers seem to be allways games given 89+ points by these magazines. They can also do real harm when they shoot down an overhyped sloppy game, which just serves right.

Anyway, these magazines have their sway mostly among the traditonal gaming enthusiasts, most of whom like their games in anglo and for good reasons, as has been pointed. Then there are casual game reviews in other media, like NYT, City, even Suomen kuvalehti(?) and many others. It is here where the other than usual markets could be reached for a game like CMBB. I'm pretty sure localized game including Continuation war would have very good chanses for such publicity and consequently increased sells, but nobody can't guarantee it would be cost effective. But if BTS feels it is a risk worth taking, I say go for it. There is nothing wrong in offering consumers more choices, and those who want an english version would still be able to get one. I for one would take the Finnish version, not because I need one but I happen to like my mother tongue, and being a translator by profession (not from english, if that can be avoided, as you can well see!), all job opportunities to my collegues are wellcome.

I understand very well Tero's points on complexities of a good translation, but there is no need to blow them out of proportion. Few mistakes here and there for grogs to point out go with the trade, it is a human affair after all, but as far the translation is logical, consistent and pragmatic for gaming purposes, all is well IMHO. Long words in Finnish are no problem if they are not that in French or especially in German (nachverteidigunswaffe etc).

One possible problem that comes to mind conserning sales in Finland and nearby areas, is that CMBB is bound to create lot of interest in Russia, and even though I doubt that CMBO has been a huge article or even available in the street markets of Tallin, illegal copies of CMBB are pretty unavoidable and some are going to end up in Finland.

[Juha Keratar]

Actually, in January 2001 when I visited Viipuri (don't know the english spelling) in Russia, right over the Finnish border, I saw pirated copies of CM on sale there...

-Lunael

[Kuma of Finland]

I'm just happy to see any version of CMBB in my local market regardless the language version (ok, maybe not Russian )

I believe guys @ BTS have counted their nickles and cents to see wether it's affordable or not to translate the game into Finnish. It's their head-ache to worry about their dimes, not our sorry-little-excuses-for-CM-players' head-ache.

But please please please, IF you translate a Finnish version, please make it possible to still play in English! And have the CMBB patches to be available regardless the localization language...

/kuma

[Brightblade]

Originally posted by Big Time Software:

[Keke]

No need for game or manual in Finnish. English is the language of gaming here. So no need for extra costs.

It would be irritating to read a manual, which would have all the typical spelling mistakes made by wannabe-Überfinns.

[Kimerik Kukka]

I prefer my software in Finnish. Not because they would be easier to use (actually sometimes switching to Finnish version causes understanding problems, terms being unfamiliar), but I like the look of Finnish when written. It's so smooth and relaxing. Also having used English in wargames for two decades I am getting bored for English expressions. Would be nice and fresh surprise to have localized version.

BTW I think the greatest danger in translation errors lies in Russian words and names. Finnish method to transferring them to latin alphabets is somewhat different than the one that English uses. I might live with anglo style as they are sometimes in use with Finnish mass media (to my horror :eek: ).

[Ligur]

No need for a Finnish version of the actual game (everyone would consider it a huge drawback, waiting for national patches, spelling errors... design would have to be done again... everyone is USED to English as the gaming language) but a Finnish manual, the typical localization done by publishers, would be a good laugh. Tho I have to point out I can't bare to read the Finnish manuals supplied 95% of the time.

Also, I would refuse to buy a Finnish version of the game.

You could sell a localization with a Finnish manual (I would not buy it tho), since I think there could be a small niche for that too.

But consider this, the localization manuals are often done so bad it scares me and in my social circles a localized manual has been considered an evil since I was 10 years old, such is our grasp of the English language... And such a bad job they have been. It sucks to read that using the "tulita, perkele" command you can make your squaddies shoot and then you can't find such a command in the game at all (where it sill reads "shoot, mofo"). When you grow older and can use your supreme überfinn logic to overcome such problems, the various mistakes and horrible overall translation will still annoy you in your drunken stupor.

Dear BTS, I know its not your fault localizations carry a reputation comparable to that of the Plague. But people before you have done a horrible job at it. Remember that when translating, you are expected to fail and it will throw a stigma of an incompetent publisher publishing for 12 year olds or younger over the release. You would REALLY have to cater to the Finns to succeed.

BTW, I would advice you to run away from the big Finnish game distributors if they offer to give you "help" in localizing, though I'm not absolutely sure, I think they or their horrible partners are behind the incredibly sloppy localization projects witnessed during the years. They have no effort invested in it, none at all. So it would have to be someone outside of the normal local circles.

[Prinz Eugen]

I don't need a localized CMBB; an all English version works for me just fine.

What I am concerned about is will we hear the troops from different countries cry out in the game in their native language ? Will we hear the Finnish Jaegers crying out "RYNNÄKKÖÖN" (charge) , or "AMPUKAA" (open fire), for example ?

What's Russian for "We surrender" ?

Does anyone know ? Will that be included ?

If so, I REALLY REALLY hope the voice actors do their bit with the level of enthusiasm required...