legend42 Posted August 10, 2002 Share Posted August 10, 2002 Ive played alot of games of CMBO since it came out, I'd say about 250.Thats just against humans.Of those 250 about 90% are tcip?others were pbem.Im not claiming to be an elite player but my point is that a highly skilled TCIP guy will wipe up the battlefeild with an opponenet who just pbems it all the time.Im not knocking pbem games at all, there fun, but there is no pressure like a tcip game with a time limit, and which leads me to my other point that tcip games are by there very nature more realistic especially when you decrease the time limit.Tcip guys dont have the luxury of whipping out there protractor and compass to figure out there next move.So my final point is that tcipers are better players than pbemers.You take a guy like Swamp,Skelley, Ghost358 from T-house and there gonna crush guys like Fionn in a tcip game. Any of your thoughts would be appreciated. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frunze Posted August 10, 2002 Share Posted August 10, 2002 You mean that people who play IP all the time might do better in an IP game? What a shocking revelation. Is it possible that people who play PBEM all the time might do better in a PBEM? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
legend42 Posted August 10, 2002 Author Share Posted August 10, 2002 I think I hurt your feelings, Im sorry but your missing the point,Im saying that while I enjoy a good pbem game just like alot of other people, its the minor leagues compared to tcip play.Pbem is like college football and tcip is like the NFL.But who says you cant enjoy a good college football game. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
legend42 Posted August 10, 2002 Author Share Posted August 10, 2002 Oh Frunze you didnt pick who you thoght the better players were.It is a poll. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Juju Posted August 10, 2002 Share Posted August 10, 2002 Originally posted by legend42: So my final point is that tcipers are better players than pbemersLoada bollocks really... It's about skill, not about how fast you can issue orders, if you ask me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
legend42 Posted August 10, 2002 Author Share Posted August 10, 2002 If you can make skillfull snap tactical choices quicker than your opponent than you are more adept at the game.Thankyou for bolstering my postion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bruno Weiss Posted August 10, 2002 Share Posted August 10, 2002 Nah, now no fair. Frunze and Juju have created a technical foul which could affect the accuracy percentage of the poll later on. A clearchoice must be made as to which gamer is superior. That is the rule of the poll. Remember, this is how we ended up with the President we got. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Juju Posted August 10, 2002 Share Posted August 10, 2002 Originally posted by legend42: If you can make skillfull snap tactical choices quicker than your opponent than you are more adept at the gameDepends on whether they're the right decisions, no? And besides, being able to do things faster doesn't necessarily make one better at things than others. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
V Posted August 10, 2002 Share Posted August 10, 2002 Originally posted by legend42: Ive played alot of games of CMBO since it came out, I'd say about 250.Thats just against humans.Of those 250 about 90% are tcip?others were pbem.Im not claiming to be an elite player but my point is that a highly skilled TCIP guy will wipe up the battlefeild with an opponenet who just pbems it all the time.Im not knocking pbem games at all, there fun, but there is no pressure like a tcip game with a time limit, and which leads me to my other point that tcip games are by there very nature more realistic especially when you decrease the time limit.Tcip guys dont have the luxury of whipping out there protractor and compass to figure out there next move.So my final point is that tcipers are better players than pbemers.You take a guy like Swamp,Skelley, Ghost358 from T-house and there gonna crush guys like Fionn in a tcip game. Any of your thoughts would be appreciated.Good players win games. No matter how they are played! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
YankeeDog Posted August 10, 2002 Share Posted August 10, 2002 Originally posted by legend42: If you can make skillfull snap tactical choices quicker than your opponent than you are more adept at the game.Thankyou for bolstering my postion.No, you are more adept at playing the game quickly. Both players have the same advantages/disadvantages in whatever format you are playing. You can't say that PBEM is 'easier' because your opponent has the same advantages you do. A better sports analogy - tcp/ip is like coaching ice hockey, and pbem is like coaching football. Both require a lot of skill, knowledge about the game and strategic acumen. Football is a slower game, though (breaks between plays & c.), so there is more time to mull over decisions. The thing is, the coach on the other sideline has the same advantage of having time to think between each play, so getting into an argument over whether it is 'easier' to coach ice hockey or football is silly. And so is this poll. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ryddle Posted August 10, 2002 Share Posted August 10, 2002 I guess if you define the query with the presumption that "faster is better" then it answers itself, doesn't it? A different skewing would be asking the question and defining the best player by the one who can juice the most out of every move. I guess the only way to judge would be to have a series of twitch vs. plodding games and then based on the individual, you can make your call. I'd love to volunteer, however I suck at both formats. -R Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
legend42 Posted August 10, 2002 Author Share Posted August 10, 2002 Hey Juju its real simple you have 5 min or all day to get 10 jobs done around the house, whata you gonna choose?Your gonna choose all day so you can take your time, get it right,stop and have a beer, relax a little.Its just harder and if you cant understand that I dont know how else to explain it to you.Its like the clock rule in chess, why do you think they use that?It determines how long it takes you to make your move,if it takes someone longer they deduct points.Its a measure of ones apptitude. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
athkatla Posted August 10, 2002 Share Posted August 10, 2002 I really don't see the point in having a time limit on moves in online games, ok, I guess it could be slow, but I for one wouldn't want to be rushed in giving my orders, I play this game for fun, not to be best. [ August 09, 2002, 08:30 PM: Message edited by: athkatla ] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
legend42 Posted August 10, 2002 Author Share Posted August 10, 2002 thanks for all your valued opinons, im not trying to insult anybody, its just my opinion that the best tcip players will beat the best pbemers 8 out of 10 times in any format. I knew this would stir the pot! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
legend42 Posted August 10, 2002 Author Share Posted August 10, 2002 Athkatla , I understand your point, I play it for fun too,Its the most fun I can have without my wife if you know what I mean.But know one can argue that a 2000 qb with a 3 min timer isnt a harder challenge and more realistic than with no time lim at all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Juju Posted August 10, 2002 Share Posted August 10, 2002 Originally posted by legend42: Its like the clock rule in chess, why do you think they use that?It determines how long it takes you to make your move,if it takes someone longer they deduct points.Its a measure of ones apptitude.So you're saying that a chessplayer/CMplayer who exclusively uses the clock rule is a better chess/CMplayer than one who never uses it? It doesn't tell you anything about the actual skill any of the players have, does it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
YankeeDog Posted August 10, 2002 Share Posted August 10, 2002 Originally posted by legend42: Hey Juju its real simple you have 5 min or all day to get 10 jobs done around the house, whata you gonna choose?Your gonna choose all day so you can take your time, get it right,stop and have a beer, relax a little.Its just harder and if you cant understand that I dont know how else to explain it to you.Its like the clock rule in chess, why do you think they use that?It determines how long it takes you to make your move,if it takes someone longer they deduct points.Its a measure of ones apptitude.No, no, no. You're still committing a logical fallcy. To illustrate using your example again: Tcp/ip: You have 5 min to get 10 chores done around the house. At the end of 5 minutes, you are judged as to how well you completed your chores against you neighbor, who is given the same amount of time to finish a similar tasks. PBEM: You have as long as you want to do your chores, but when you are finished, the quality of your job is judged against your neighbor's job, who has as much time as he wants to to his chores. The question would then be, which contest requires more house cleaning skill to win?? The answer is neither, since your opponent has the same advantages/disadvantages you do. You will probably do a more complete house cleaning job in the former competition, but that is an evaluation of the nature of the competition, not of the skill required to compete well. The all-day competition may also be less stressful or onerous, but that is also not an evaluation of skill. To use your chess analogy, the chess player in the park who plays with a 15 second turn limit may well be the master of his own game, and he may well be able to beat the grandmaster who is accustomed to having 30 minutes or more per turn when playing under 15 secon rules. This doesn't make him an empirically better player, it just makes him better at playing under a certain set of rules. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
legend42 Posted August 10, 2002 Author Share Posted August 10, 2002 Yes it does because your subtracting the ability of one to think quickly and faster from the equation.Your discounting the fact the speed is a skill.I guess the discussion is coming down to whether you believe that speed in this game is a skill.I happen to beleive it is.If you dont thats fine. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
YankeeDog Posted August 10, 2002 Share Posted August 10, 2002 Originally posted by legend42: thanks for all your valued opinons, im not trying to insult anybody, its just my opinion that the best tcip players will beat the best pbemers 8 out of 10 times in any format. I knew this would stir the pot!Now you are making more sense. If I understand you correctly, you are saying that if you took the best players of tcp/ip and the best players of PBEM, had them play a bunch of games, 50% tcp/ip with a relatively short time limit, and 50% PBEM with no time limit, then the tcp/ip players would beat the PBEM players more often than the other way around. Dunno the answer, and frankly don't really care. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Juju Posted August 10, 2002 Share Posted August 10, 2002 Originally posted by legend42: I guess the discussion is coming down to whether you believe that speed in this game is a skill.I happen to beleive it is.If you dont thats fine.No, I do not agree that speed as applied to CM (in general) is a skill. Yankeedog said it well, it's only about being better at playing under a certain set of rules. Oh well, as long as we're having fun, eh! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Commissar Posted August 10, 2002 Share Posted August 10, 2002 I dont think its about the timer. Many tcp/ip games have a long enough timer for both players to finish, in my experience. People who take 2 hours to plan all their moves for a 2000 point game are just slow, plain and simple. Nothing wrong with that of course, but if you are slow you can't play as much. If you can't play as much, you get less experience playing. If you get less experience playing, you are worse at it then someone who can get in a dozen games while you fiddle away with just one. So yes, TCP/IP'ers are better gamers IMO. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Foobar Posted August 10, 2002 Share Posted August 10, 2002 Legend, You are one who derives pleasures from dissent. Don't you get enough digital blood from your 250 games? Why do you feel the need to try to spill any here in the forum? This is a place for gentlemen, and for Lawyer. May you be doomed to an eternity of silly tournaments, using nothing but Gebirgjagers, King Tigers, and 300m Rockets... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Louie the Toad Posted August 10, 2002 Share Posted August 10, 2002 IIRC, CM has been criticised by some for time compression. That is, in a typical (30 minute) CM battle way too much happens as compared to real combat. Of course there are frantic, wild, split second actions in real life, but grognards have commented that these were the exception, whereas the rule was a couple of hours for battles to develop. So the premise that IP battles are more realistic is highly questionable. Trying to make a battle develop even faster would then make it even less realistic. Speed Kills ...... Toad Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Schrullenhaft Posted August 10, 2002 Share Posted August 10, 2002 Monkeys are the baddest players (or l33t, whatever) !!! Don't play 'head-to-head' with a monkey. If you kill one of his tanks he'll go apesh*t on you and then start taunting you with his ass in your face. It just isn't pretty... Oh,... this is a poll ? Well, I say PBEM'ers will kick the ass of any TCP/IP-only player any day of the week. You see a TCP/IP-only player is completely dependent on the adrenaline rush to enjoy CM. While the PBEM'er will savor his orders and his tactical strategy. In fact the slow PBEM'er can maintain his enjoyment for weeks even months on the same game. After a week a TCP/IP-only player will lose interest in the PBEM game and will start to make mistakes (intentionally or unintentionally) to get the game over with. And that is when the PBEM'er pounces... The TCP/IP'ers can't handle it over the long haul and will eventually lose out to the PBEM'ers. I believe this is a Russian 'grand strategy' and it is how they 'play war'. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BFCElvis Posted August 10, 2002 Share Posted August 10, 2002 OK..I'll chime in here. My feeling is that a TCP player is a better player than a PBEM only player. Decisions on the battlefield happened quickly. I rarely play TCP with the timer on but you still have the internal timer on because you know someone is on the other end of the connection waiting for you. I have heard of people taking 1/2 hour to an hour to plot a PBEM file. Unless you are playing some kind of HUGE game that amount of time is silly. So to complete my thought the TCP player has to have a better "feel" for the game and tactics needed in battle whereas a PBEM only player is a gamey looking at every nook and crany kinda player. Both the realistic and game playing aspects are being exploited to make up for what is lacking in natural knowledge and instinct of the battle being played. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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