How do the fronts differ in CM BB?

[Prinz Eugen]

I was just wondering, having read a book about the Finnish anti-tank units and their actions in the Winter and Continuation War. My main fear is will the terrain in the Arctic (shouldn't this be called Finnish? ) Front will be true to the real thing ?

Finns were seriously handicapped in just about everything vs the Soviets, who had overwhelming numbers in troops, guns, tanks, planes...You name it. By the time of the decisive last Soviet attack in Tali-Ihantala, we had only around 30 Stug IIIg's, a couple of T-34s and some atgs vs the might of Soviet armour and artillery. If it weren't for the German Panzerfausts and 'schrecks we could have broken a sweat repulsing the attack !

To the point, I sure hope that the terrain will be very much like how it was in the Karelian isthmus and to the north. Heavy trees, heavy swamps, not much roads etc. Should the terrain be more akin to CMBO with a mod tree setting in QBs, then the Finns don't stand a chance. Is is certain that the terrain was our major ally, especially in the winter ! If the terrain in the Arctic will not be true to life, then a Finnish player will not stand a chance in the open with the hordes of Soviet tanks !

I would like to ask, then, that does the terrain in different fronts vary, and in what way does it differ from CMBO ? And the winter, does the cold affect the troops and weapons ? Are there any differences in the performances of, say, tanks in the winter ? I've read that in the extreme conditions, not only the men suffered tremendously (especially the Germans), but that the MGs would cease to function, upon firing the barrels of guns would not restore to original positions...

[Hensworth]

I guess it will be up to the map designer to use the available terrain types to create a realistic landscape.

It was already possible in CMBO to create the kind of terrain you describe. I don't see why it should be less so in CMBB.

[Prinz Eugen]

I mean the QB generator, is it more realistic ?

[ParaBellum]

In CMBB you can always (in the editor) generate a map, modify it to your liking and then play a QB on this map, that should help in getting more realistic maps in QBs.

Or you can make a completely new map for a QB, I even think you can import a map from another game. Lots of interesting stuff!

[Incognito]

I have understand that yuo can import maps and troops from previous battle as a somekind of replasement of "real" campaing.

So is there QO too? :confused:

(quick operations)

Might be "groovier" in the sence of campaing.

[BeauCoupDinkyDau]

Will we be able to import some of our CMBO maps? Anyone know this one?

[Pzman]

The people from BFC, have said many times VJ, that you can't import maps from CMBO and put them in CMBB.

[ July 27, 2002, 06:48 PM: Message edited by: Panzerman ]

[John Kettler]

Prinz Eugen,

From what I recall seeing in the SoCal Sneak Preview, there were five or six geographical zones

available for battle in the Quick Battle Generator, each presumably with its own unique set of terrain

and forestation defaults.

Hope this helps.

Regards,

John Kettler

[Chad Harrison]

I just look forward to finally being able to create maps for QBattles! That will make team play a whole lot easier!

chad

[Prinz Eugen]

Originally posted by John Kettler:

From what I recall seeing in the SoCal Sneak Preview, there were five or six geographical zones

available for battle in the Quick Battle Generator, each presumably with its own unique set of terrain

and forestation defaults.

Just hope that the unique Finnish terrain is in ! I'd hate it playing in your average CM BO QB terrain against those Soviet monster-tanks . But, if you get to choose a 95% trees setting , then my brave satchel-charge equipped Jägers will give them IS's a jolly good beating !!! Which is nice !!!

[Ari Maenpaa]

Originally posted by Prinz Eugen:

But, if you get to choose a 95% trees setting , then my brave satchel-charge equipped Jägers will give them IS's a jolly good beating !!! Which is nice !!!

Although the 95% trees setting would apply to most part of the Finnish front (particularly everything north of Lake Ladoga), it's not applicable for the Karelian Isthmus area, which had quite diverse terrain. Yep, there were lots of trees, but also small lakes, rivers, rocks, roads, villages and plenty of fields.

Not to say that the terrain wasn't friendly for the defender, but those trees just weren't everywhere

Ari

[Tero]

Originally posted by Ari Maenpaa:

Not to say that the terrain wasn't friendly for the defender, but those trees just weren't everywhere

So how will these little historical facts play out in the CMBB:

- Finnish Maxim's being modelled to take in snow as coollant in winter ?

- AT guns pumping up to 20-40 rounds on a KO'd tank trying to make it burn - and survive ?

- having Finnish AFV's survive without any losses the hordes of IL-2's and Aira/Kingcobras (or heavy arty barrages for that matter) ?

Incidentaly, anybody ever seen the data on the lost T-26's (which make out the overwhelming bulk of the actual losses) ? I recall seeing reports of a few being lost in tank-vs-tank duels and to infantry (AT rifles ?) but I have never seen a detailed list of causes for anything but the BT-42's and Stugs. As we all know the KV's survised and the number of T-34's actually increased during the fighting.

A further subject of wonder: will a BA-3/BA-10/T-70/T-26 be able to take a T-34/KV/IS(Tiger/Panther etc) head on and be as wonderful a weapons system as Stuart/M-8 are now in the CMBO ?

[Guest Mike]

Finland is in as a separate zone all of its own. Dunno what it's characteristics are tho'.

the others are northern, centre and southern IIRC

[Soddball]

Well Tero, since you're obviously a neutral observer in this debate, I'm waiting for the documentary proof that finnish men used to urinate on the welds of the russian tanks to weaken them before they attacked them head on with rusty knives.

If you want to play "Invincible Finns rule the world", why don't you fire up a game of Unreal Tournament with the cheats on?

[ July 28, 2002, 06:28 PM: Message edited by: Soddball ]

[Juha Keratar]

Well, I trust that CMBB will realistically model every aspect of überfinn combat prowess. And if it doesn't we'll model it perfectly anyway by playing the game only against you foreigners.

But back to the topic: does the theatre affect anything else besides map? Units one can buy definitely, I don't expect to see Finnish troops in other theatres than arctic (after all, Germany lost there ), but what else? Weather?

I assume that certain axis allies won't be found on all fronts, but any ideas which ones will be where? Also, the german unit selections in arctic area should realistically be somewhat limited, to the troops operating in Lapland.

-Lunael

Cure : Cut

[Durbish]

I would suggest not allowing players to use Finns until they have beaten the AI 100 to 0 as underdogs in a 10 to 1 odds battle. That would flip an internal toggle allowing future use of Finnish units.

[Guest Mike]

Yes the units yuo can buy depend on the map - eg you won't get any Italians or Hungarians in Finland, or Finns anywhere EXCEPT Finland.

[Tero]

Originally posted by Soddball:

Well Tero, since you're obviously a neutral observer in this debate, I'm waiting for the documentary proof that finnish men used to urinate on the welds of the russian tanks to weaken them before they attacked them head on with rusty knives.

Unfortunately it is all in Finnish.

If you want to play "Invincible Finns rule the world", why don't you fire up a game of Unreal Tournament with the cheats on?

I wish you überFinn bashers would even once actually read what is written before you draw your conclusions and start the rabid dog act.

- Finnish Maxim's being modelled to take in snow as coollant in winter ?

Ever cared to actually think about asking what the modification was like ?

- AT guns pumping up to 20-40 rounds on a KO'd tank trying to make it burn - and survive ?

The survivability of the onboard arty pieces, including AT guns, in CMBO is not what it should be. If you can believe any of the Finnish wartime records, legends, folk stories and fairy tales on the subject. Sure, they got knocked out. But they also survived barrages more ferocious than the CMBO game engine can produce in a run of the mill QB.

Also, when was the last time you heard a gun fire 20-40 rounds at a target. How über were those überFinnish gunners ? Or is it just that making a T-34 with an empty gas tank and empty ammo rafters is a bitch to set alight ? What was the supporting Red Army infatry doing while those 20-40 rounds were being fired ?

- having Finnish AFV's survive without any losses the hordes of IL-2's and Aira/Kingcobras (or heavy arty barrages for that matter) ?

Well, this is just a fact of life. I have never ever seen any data that would even hint the Soviet CS was able to kill any Finnish AFV's. Horse transports and infantry were quite harrassed by it. I have seen reports of AA gunners duking it out with the IL's, jump out of the gun pit and jump back in to continue once the IL had fired and pulling up.

Incidentaly, I wonder if the IL will have its rear gunner shoot at the targets when pulling up.

A further subject of wonder: will a BA-3/BA-10/T-70/T-26 be able to take a T-34/KV/IS(Tiger/Panther etc) head on and be as wonderful a weapons system as Stuart/M-8 are now in the CMBO ?

OK, this was sarcasm through and through. But still IMO a valid concern, given the quite phenomenal performace of the Stuart and M8.

[ July 29, 2002, 02:01 AM: Message edited by: tero ]

[Tero]

Originally posted by Juha Keratar:

Well, I trust that CMBB will realistically model every aspect of überfinn combat prowess.

If you believe the universal soldier axiom is 100% on the money and there are practically no differences in tactics and doctrine in various armies.

I just wonder how much better (or worse ) the radio equipped German units will perform compared to the landline telephone equipped Finnish units in the Finnish sector. All will be totally in line with what happened IRL of course.

And if it doesn't we'll model it perfectly anyway by playing the game only against you foreigners.

But back to the topic: does the theatre affect anything else besides map? Units one can buy definitely, I don't expect to see Finnish troops in other theatres than arctic (after all, Germany lost there ), but what else? Weather?

I assume that certain axis allies won't be found on all fronts, but any ideas which ones will be where? Also, the german unit selections in arctic area should realistically be somewhat limited, to the troops operating in Lapland.

I think the German units up North will be limited to what was actually there: a few selected armoured units (ie. appropriate vehicles) and WaffenGrenadier ( ) and regular Gebirgs Jaeger formations.

It may well be the regular Wehrmacht armour and infantry will also be available for the 1941/42 Ladoga Karelia and the summer of 1944 Isthmus operations further south but that is just a hunch based on what Steve divulged a few months ago.

[Guest Mike]

Originally posted by tero:

The survivability of the onboard arty pieces, including AT guns, in CMBO is not what it should be. If you can believe any of the Finnish wartime records, legends, folk stories and fairy tales on the subject. Sure, they got knocked out. But they also survived barrages more ferocious than the CMBO game engine can produce in a run of the mill QB.

With FOW set to extreme AT guns will be difficult to spot even when they've fired several shots.

In my preview a 150mm IG took out 2 Matildas and a KV-2 with only 1 shot from the KV-2 in return (direct fire) - various MG's and things shot at tit, sometimes only area fire at the icon when it disappeared after a couple of shots.

Eventually about the last shot of a 81mm mortar barrage killed it - grr.....talk about tough!

[Prinz Eugen]

Originally posted by Soddball:

If you want to play "Invincible Finns rule the world", why don't you fire up a game of Unreal Tournament with the cheats on?

Is this sarcasm I hear ? Eh ? Are you claiming that Finnish troops that repulsed the might that is Soviet Union (and that got as far as the heart of Europe ? ) do not deserve the status of Uberfinns ?!? :mad:

I sure hope that BFC will honour us by making the

conditions in the Finnish front as lifelike as possible !

[Tero]

Originally posted by Mike:

With FOW set to extreme AT guns will be difficult to spot even when they've fired several shots.

That is good to hear.

In my preview a 150mm IG took out 2 Matildas and a KV-2 with only 1 shot from the KV-2 in return (direct fire) - various MG's and things shot at tit, sometimes only area fire at the icon when it disappeared after a couple of shots.

Eventually about the last shot of a 81mm mortar barrage killed it - grr.....talk about tough!

I'd like to draw your attention to the following snippets at J.D. Salts page at

http://www.britwar.co.uk/salts/

WW2 weapon effectiveness

WO 291/620 The vulnerability of guns to attack by bombs and shell

German guns are considered as the following equivalent target areas of ¼-inch mild steel:

88mm 4.8 sq ft

"IFH 18" 105mm howitzer 1.8 sq ft

"SFH 18" 150mm howitzer 5.5 sq ft

The vulnerable area of a 5.5" 100lb shell is "of the order of 1000 sq ft against a gun in the open".

"A sunken or sandbagged emplacement restricts effective rounds to those actually bursting in the

emplacement except where part of the recoil system is above the barrel." The British 6-pdr, with its

recoil system below the barrel, "is probably rather less vulnerable than the German 105mm".

Vulnerable areas, in square feet, for various weapons on 105mm and 150mm targets are given below.

The 25-pdr, 20lb 'F' bomb and 40lb GP bomb are listed with no VAs, and so are assumed ineffective

except for direct hits.

Weapon 150mm 105mm

5.5" shell 1300 600

250lb GP bomb 12500 5800

1000lb GP bomb 24300 11700

WO 291/1322 Vulnerability of Enemy Equipment to Shell Fire

Based on the results of CB bombardments tabulated below, this report concludes that the agreement

with theory is good, as the number of total casualties in columns 5 and 6 is about the same, and that the method of calculating vulnerable areas is well established.

Column 1 Serial number of target

Column 2 Number of rounds fired in a square of side 100 yards

Column 3 Number of targets

Column 4 Nature of targets

Column 5 Chance of damage

Column 6 Number of targets reported damaged

1 2 3 4 5 6

1 20 3 105mm 0.43 –

2 10 3 105mm 0.22 –

3 21 1 Nebelwerfer 0.21 1

4 5 3 105mm 0.11 –

5 12 3 105mm 0.27 –

6 63 1 105mm 0.39 –

7 35 2 Nebelwerfer 0.65 1

8 44 3 75mm 1.16 –

9 21 1 Nebelwerfer 0.21 1

10 7 2 75mm 0.15 –

11 26 2 105mm 0.36 –

12 11 1 150mm 0.04 1

13 8 1 75mm 0.08 1

14 59 1 Nebelwerfer 0.48 –

15 48 2 105mm 0.57 –

16 57 1 170mm 0.47 1

17 35 2 150mm 0.22 1

18 35 3 75mm 0.97 1

19 22 3 105mm 0.47 –

20 28 3 105mm 0.58 –

21 49 3 105mm 0.95 –

22 35 1 105mm 0.24 –

Tabulation in the PDF is way better.

I know the mortar is one of the most accurate artillery weapon systems in existence. I hear you actually have to deliberately nudge the tube to change the aiming to get some spread. Otherwise the shells would all land in the same place. Still, I think the loss ratio of onboard arty pieces to any kind of fire is a bit overstated.

[kmk24]

Moi kaverit,

Ois yks kysymys. Mulla on Suomen rintamamiehet 1939 - 1945 kirja, jossa on vaarini tiedot, mitä tarkoittaa lyhenne Vm2??

ps. Soddball seems to have some kind of problem with our grandfathers...

sorry little off topic, sorry

[ July 29, 2002, 02:12 PM: Message edited by: kmk24 ]

[Prinz Eugen]

Originally posted by kmk24:

Moi kaverit,

Ois yks kysymys. Mulla on Suomen rintamamiehet 1939 - 1945 kirja, jossa on vaarini tiedot, mitä tarkoittaa lyhenne Vm2??

ps. Soddball seems to have some kind of problem with our grandfathers...

sorry little off topic, sorry

Moi itelles ! Aina hauska nähdä maanmiehiä täällä ! Kyllä sitten CM BB:n ilmestyessä näytetään, mistä suomalainen sotilas oli tehty !

Vm2...Ei varmaan tarkoita viestimiestä ? :confused: Voitko antaa lisää tietoja, esim, missä yhteydessä se esiintyy ? Tai no, mie luultavasti en kyllä tiedä, ehkä joku viisaampi...

Sodball, sod off !

[Munter]

Originally posted by kmk24:

Moi kaverit,

Ois yks kysymys. Mulla on Suomen rintamamiehet 1939 - 1945 kirja, jossa on vaarini tiedot, mitä tarkoittaa lyhenne Vm2?

Toisen luokan vapaudenmitali.

M