Is it TRUE?????

[Moon]

For the record - the German version will definitely have renamed Waffen-SS units. They will still be in there, just called differently (Waffengrenadier) to assure compliance with German laws.

But nobody here has confirmed that ALL european versions will be like this. Reason is - CDV hasn't decided yet, at least from what we (Battlefront) know.

With CMBO, the decision was made by CVD to have all European versions rename the relevant units, for fear of massive re-imports into Germany from, for example, UK, which could get CDV into trouble nonetheless. It is very much possible that this will be the same for CMBB, but it is not certain at this point. Maybe Achim from CDV, who reads this board, can confirm at some point what CDV's approach will be. But please understand that whatever it will be, we (Battlefront) have no influence on the decision.

Martin

[Das Reich]

Originally posted by Moon:

For the record - the German version will definitely have renamed Waffen-SS units. They will still be in there, just called differently (Waffengrenadier) to assure compliance with German laws.

But nobody here has confirmed that ALL european versions will be like this. Reason is - CDV hasn't decided yet, at least from what we (Battlefront) know.

With CMBO, the decision was made by CVD to have all European versions rename the relevant units, for fear of massive re-imports into Germany from, for example, UK, which could get CDV into trouble nonetheless. It is very much possible that this will be the same for CMBB, but it is not certain at this point. Maybe Achim from CDV, who reads this board, can confirm at some point what CDV's approach will be. But please understand that whatever it will be, we (Battlefront) have no influence on the decision.

Martin

Thanks for the info.

that German law is outdated, IMHO, and should be changed...

[Scipio]

Originally posted by Panzer Leader:

I am using my non-legal mind to figure this out. It seems to me that CDV refuses (out of fear of breaking their own German laws) to allow the SS in the game. Therefore, if Bigtime released a patch that would allow European (and especially German) gamers to pop the SS back in, and if CDV KNEW aboutr this patch, they would be...what's the word... complicit, therefore liable for any broken laws which may or may not exist.

Now, all that said, Steve G. of Battlefront, said that they would NOT be angry (this is a first) if some hacker was able to produce a crack that put the SS back in. He was very cautious about what he said, but it sounded like in thes SINGLE case, if the code could be tampered with to allow the SS back in, he would not actively fight it.

For a company that fights tooth-n-nail against code-breakers and hackers, this is a big statement coming from Steve, and it shows you subtly how they feel about the incident, that it was unfortunate but couldn't be helped.

There is another big thread a few pages back (locked now) where all this was hashed over in depth. Find it if interested, I'm sure Scipio could point it out

Huh, why me?

BTW, as I have learned in the meantime, it is in CMBO quite easy to rename the Waffengrenadiere into Waffeleisen, WaffenBunnies or whatever you want to. But we all understand that BTS can not support such actions for several reasons.

On the other hand, it would help a lot of people to cool down if they would knew that CM:BB uses the same or a very similar 'names library' like CM:BO (cough-cough)... :cool:

[mchlstrt]

It seems to me that it should always be mentioned in these threads that this only applies to the Windoze version. Civilized folks will still be able (required) to get their Mac version online (right?). Speaking of which, how will BXX handle advertising this? I stumbled across the Demo on a MacAddict CD (oh, generous Fates) & hanging around this dive is what finally got me really using the 'net for something more than MapQuest. I wouldn't have found it otherwise. I don't think I've seen much mention of Macness in reviews & such, & we don't get many choices period, much less The Best (& no CMMOS, now there's your real downside to being an Apple man).

I'm just lookin' out for my uninitiated Brothers.

Strt

[massimorocca]

But why not allow for an European purchaser out of Germany to order and "pay" for the overseas expedition if he wants the original version, like happended to the original version of CMBO?

[Ozzy]

Originally posted by Dirtweasle:

Just a side note to this - I made a simaler offer to someone but have found the cost of shipping to be prohibitive. If anyone knows of a cost effective shipper to Germany from the U.S. please let me know.

US Army

No, in serious: if any of you have friends in US Armed Forces serving in Europe: it is very possible they can order the original version in Europe OR that they can purchase it in the US and get it shipped via army postal services.

Then shipping within Europe is affordable.

[ July 23, 2002, 04:25 AM: Message edited by: Ozzy ]

[Ozzy]

Originally posted by Das Reich:

that German law is outdated, IMHO, and should be changed...

No, it ain't.

Nations and Peoples of all over the world frequently talk about Germany's guilt.

I as young German (who was not involved in the Nazi era) rather talk about Germany's heritage, which is to never forget what happened only 60 years ago.

We should also not forget about the socialist totalitaristic system in East Germany 1945-1990.

German law does not censor. For purposes of historical research or public education, you can use whatever symbol or name of the Nazi era you want. It is even teached in schools.

What actually IS prohibited is the (re-)establishment of organizations and the usage of their names, abbreviations and symbols which do not agree with or actively fight the most basic terms of the German constitution (and many others), which are freedom, democracy, tolerance and right. Among these organizations are the NSdAP, the SA, the KPD (German communist party) and the SS. As you see, this is not restricted to Nazi organzitations. A popular German saying of today is: Stop the Beginnings, and that is the purpose of this law.

Now really difficult is the question if the usage of these names and symbols for NON-political, but also non-educational purposes (which would be the case for CM) would be allowed.

Additionally, in Germany exists a Software Control Board (note: AFAIK it's NOT a government institution, it's a voluntary board of the software developing and distributing industry), whose intent is mainly to protect children and teenager from excessive or abusive brutality, porn, and politically, ethically or ethnically radical thoughts. Actually this Board might cause more trouble to CDV than the proper German law itself.

To avoid trouble with the law or the Borad, many companies (such as CDV) will be rather conservative in attitude. Unfortunally, here the Waffen-SS, the SS-Totenkopfverbände and the SS concentration camp units are considered part of the same organization, which historically is not quite correct as we all know. So we must not critizise the law, but the consideration of the Waffen-SS to be a political or radical organization.

However, this is how things are.

I can understand BTS for choosing CDV for European distribution (simply a question of economy), and I can understand CDV (a question of law), though I do not like it.

Hope that clears some misunderstandings.

[Andreas]

Ozzy, great post. Now anyone interested in whether the German law should be changed, should read this book

[Tero]

Originally posted by Andreas:

Ozzy, great post. Now anyone interested in whether the German law should be changed, should read this book

Also, they should pause for a moment and think why they do not feel as outraged when MTV/MTVE censors lyrics, exhibition of human anatomy and common gestures in the videos they air. Or why, at least in Finland, the aired foreign music is mostly the same censored stuff they air in MTVE. Or why some BBS boards choose to censor what they consider to be profanity and you can not for example use the proper name for Camecock aircraft because it would come out as Came**** or such like.

IMO the German laws are appropriate and serve the purposes they are intended to serve. The effects they have on the game play are only cosmetic.

Now, I would object if they would insist the KIA markers should be changed to zombies. Or the sides be named Orcs, Goblins, Fairies or the like. Or they would insist the explosions be made less violent. Or the firing graphics be made to resemble Flash Gordon death rays.

Rant mode off...

[Tero]

Originally posted by Ozzy:

whose intent is mainly to protect children and teenager from excessive or abusive brutality, porn, and politically, ethically or ethnically radical thoughts.

The problem here is: how can you teach they are "wrong" if you do not expose the children to them in a controlled manner ? Total censorship is a double edged sword.

The media is filled with this kind of crap, excessive or abusive brutality (porn is usually out but not sexually loaded imagery), politically and ethically or ethnically radical thoughts, only they are directed at other groups like aliens from outer space, ugly people, under achievers or other such like groups which are not considered to be sancrosanct and inviolate. But all the same incredients are there and they are directed directly at the children.

Compare Band of Brothers to Power Puff Girls. You would not even imagine exposing a 4-6 year old to BoB but you do not think twice about PPG. Yet the stuff in PPG is much more horrendous and sickening, if you take into account the frame of reference a 4-6 year old should have. What is more, "kiddie" shows like PPG teach intolerance and violant behaviour much more effectively than the parents and the establisment can teach tolerance and "pasifistic" way of life.

When the children reach the age they go to schol the damage is already done and no amount of education will divert them from the path of bias, intolerance and suspicion to anything foreign and unconformist. If they shun, ridicule and abuse the underadchievers in teenager shows how can they possibly think it is wrong to act the same way towards minorities and/or the less fortunate IRL.

More over, if you outlaw for example the heraldry in its entirety you make it more fascinating in the process. Can you teach a swastika represents evil and is bad without teaching the ideology and motgivation behind the movement which used it ? Is the teacher in violation of the law if in order to teach what a swastika looks like he has to show it to the pupils ?

[ July 23, 2002, 07:04 AM: Message edited by: tero ]

[Moon]

Tero, moot point because there is no total censorship in Germany. Reread the post from Ozzy.

Martin

[Ozzy]

tero,

as Moon said, there is no total censorship in Germany.

Additionally, there are two things mixed up in this (and earlier) discussions.

One is the legal aspect:

History, names, organizations, ideologies, and everything related to it ARE firm part of school education for every pupil in Germany. The achievements of the free world are part of family, kindergarden and school education (Well, at least mostly, as children usually are mirrors of their parents).

German society and media speak freely about the Nazi and the Socialist era, and try to learn from that for future generations.

And for THAT purpose you can use all names and symbols you want (and no teacher will be condemned for education).

However, IMO the government (IMPORTANT: as elected representant of the society) has a certain obligation to define what is free expression of opinion and what is anticonstitutional (just as it does for crimes).

Don't think that the prohibition of organizations in Germany is an act of arbitrariness. It is a very long and complicated process, in which several governmental institutions and independent federal courts are involved. The decision is then made by the highest German cout of Justice, the Bundesverfassungsgericht (Federal Constitunional Court).

The second aspect is youth protection.

I think we all agree that the base for a persons character and attitude is founded by the family. If parents and family do not care about the education, it cannot be helped, censoring or not.

IMO your comparation with other media sources (especially Internet) is not applicable, as German law can of course only regulate the sources within its sphere of validity.

But where it HAS influence, it should define to which things children should have access to. You would agree that the access to drugs or alcohol should be restricted. And so it should to illustrations of violence, brutality, and ethically/ethnically inacceptable opinion.

IMO it is a great achievement that the software (and video and cinema and TV and print media and toy) industry voluntarily defines to which software the children should have access to (in German "indizieren"). As Andreas said, "indizierte" software can be purchased by adults, but not advertised or sold free in stores.

THAT is CDVs fear: if they would use Waffen-SS in CM, the game might be "indiziert", and hence cannot be advertised and sold free, which would be economically an *extreme* disadvantage.

[ July 23, 2002, 08:08 AM: Message edited by: Ozzy ]

[Tero]

Originally posted by Moon:

Tero, moot point because there is no total censorship in Germany. Reread the post from Ozzy.

Total censorship is one thing. People bitching violently about nomenclature and heraldry in the game being altered according to a nations laws another. At the same time another nations standards (if not laws) are being imposed on us and yet they are not being questioned in the least. That is what was not mentioned in the padlocked threads.

[KNac]

I never will understand this kind of censorship (total or not) because it not helps, the only thing they do is proliferat it and it will not help no one. But I will not enter in political discussion.

The question goes farther, it´s about freedom. If I´m forced by CDV to buy a manipulated product because an asshole not-international law I´m not gonna buy it, simple. I hope european players from other countries which don´t have such law will be able to buy the product directly from BF.C because if not I´m sorry but I will miss the game, I´m not sentencing no one here, I´m sorry because I will miss this excelent game made by the excelent guys at BTS/BFC. But I will not buy it for sure, I want to see "Waffen SS" not "Waffengrenadier" or somthing like that, because I live in a democratic country which don´t has any law that ban this, and so, I´m free to have the original game.

I think that finally the guys at CDV (which it´s not their fault that that law exist) decide to supply the rest of european countries with the original version.

[Olle Petersson]

(Slightly related and probably not worth another thread...)

I visited CDVs site yesterday, to see what they had to say about CMBB.

Release: Germany, september 2002. (No other nation mentioned, while other games had dates for UK and USA! )

When browsing their webshop I found that CMBO is €25 if ordered in German and €45 if ordered in English! :confused:

Is there a valid reason? (Perhaps time to freshen my skills in German before ordering CMBB...)

Cheers

Olle

[Tero]

Originally posted by Ozzy:

as Moon said, there is no total censorship in Germany.

I think that is not what the media coverage abroad is emphazising too much.

History, names, organizations, ideologies, and everything related to it ARE firm part of school education for every pupil in Germany. The achievements of the free world are part of family, kindergarden and school education (Well, at least mostly, as children usually are mirrors of their parents).

The disparity between school and home education is not an insignificant factor. If there is an "official" and a informal truth about the greater the gap between the two the greater the confusion among the pupils.

German society and media speak freely about the Nazi and the Socialist era, and try to learn from that for future generations.

Do you think the rise of the neo-nazi and the ultra right wing politicians all around Europe are a passing phase ?

And for THAT purpose you can use all names and symbols you want (and no teacher will be condemned for education).

This is in contrast with the almost rabid (well at least how it seems from where I am standing) responce to them being used publicly.

However, IMO the government (IMPORTANT: as elected representant of the society) has a certain obligation to define what is free expression of opinion and what is anticonstitutional (just as it does for crimes).

On this we agree.

Don't think that the prohibition of organizations in Germany is an act of arbitrariness. It is a very long and complicated process, in which several governmental institutions and independent federal courts are involved. The decision is then made by the highest German cout of Justice, the Bundesverfassungsgericht (Federal Constitunional Court).

How well are these proceedings publicized ?

If parents and family do not care about the education, it cannot be helped, censoring or not.

What if their views are in stark contrast with that of the establisments ?

IMO your comparation with other media sources (especially Internet) is not applicable, as German law can of course only regulate the sources within its sphere of validity. But where it HAS influence, it should define to which things children should have access to.

It is not what gets censored or prohibited that counts. It is what gets OK'd, or worse ignored by these guardians. Have you ever actually watched any of the TV shows directed at small children or teenagers ? If a 10 year old girl (height 135cm, weight 35 kg) thinks she is too fat and develops an eating disorder there must be something seriously wrong. Or worse, when two 6 year olds get into their heads to kill a toddler. Everything else in their life gets combed over but what they have watched on TV over the years. Computer games they have played immediately before they develop these symptoms get blamed but not the TV shows they have watched and absorbed during the years they have been able to sit in front of the telly.

And so it should to illustrations of violence, brutality, and ethically/ethnically inacceptable opinion. IMO it is a great achievement that the software (and video and cinema and TV and print media and toy) industry voluntarily defines to which software the children should have access to (in German "indizieren").

IMO a child should have to have a channel to learn how to cope with negative feelings. War toys were banned years ago. Consequently the children (mainly boys) who have been pounding Doom and other violent games or have been watching violent cartoons have no consept of compassion they would have learned when playing war or cops and robbers with other children. And it is starting to show.

THAT is CDVs fear: if they would use Waffen-SS in CM, the game might be "indiziert", and hence cannot be advertised and sold free, which would be economically an *extreme* disadvantage.

Agreed. I personally will not break down in tears if my copy of the game did not have the proper nomenclature or heraldry in when I first buy it. As long as it is in the store the day of the official release.

[Tarquelne]

The question goes farther, it´s about freedom. If I´m forced by CDV to buy a manipulated product because an asshole not-international law I´m not gonna buy it, simple.

What your missing here is that there are two factions within CDV. CDV isn't wholly evil.

One, the "Spanners", control the time gate. It's the "Spanners" who went back in time to impliment the "censorship" laws that create the manipulated product. They also control the orbital mind control lasers, forcing people to buy manipulated products.

The other faction is the "Kribleu." They're the good guys. The Kribleu have many members, but the most important are the "Suicide Lawyers." There the ones willing to face fines and prosecution for being responsible for CDV's non-compliance with the law of the land. The Kribleu are willing to sacrifice themselves for your gameing pleasure.

But they need more money for law school tuition! E-mail me, and I'll send you my address. I accept VISA, Mastercard, and PayPal. Send me money, and I'll pass it on the the brave boys and girls of the Kribleu.

(Edited to introduce spelling errors.)

[ July 23, 2002, 09:21 AM: Message edited by: Tarqulene ]

[Prinz Eugen]

Originally posted by KNac:

I never will understand this kind of censorship

The question goes farther, it´s about freedom. If I´m forced by CDV to buy a manipulated product

I´m not gonna buy it, simple.

I I will miss the game, I´m not sentencing no one here, I´m sorry because I will miss this excelent game made by the excelent guys at BTS/BFC.

I want to see "Waffen SS" not "Waffengrenadier"

Aren't you overreacting JUST A TINY AMOUNT ??? Not buying CM BB for it may not have Waffen-SS in it ??? Talk about man of principles...

IMHO there was enough bitching about this issue a while earlier. So, as an European I'm forced to buy my CMBB from CDV. All I "miss" is troops labeled Waffen-SS, otherwise it's the same product in here as in the US. It's not a "MANIPULATED PRODUCT" goddamnit ! And anyway, if you have the ABSOLUTE need of bitching about something so small, then I would suggest that you start spamming the German gov'ment, or sumthing. Just don't do that here. Please.

[KNac]

Well, if you order the german version in other european country it cost also 25 euros? If no, it´s about logistics and distribution (however it´s very hard to believe that it can go up 20 euros, ordering a game from USA will cost the same ammount because of shipping! And it´s overseas!). If not, there is no reason it should be that way, it seems to me that finally I will buy direct from BF.C even if it cost several days more to arrive

edited-

Tarqulene --> you shouldn´t laught because it´s more serious than what you think. read below...

prinz Eugen --> well, I was just giving my opinion ( I think that I CAN do it) I wasn´t rude at all and I din´t whine about BF or CDV at all, just expressing my opinion about this. It can be very stupid for you but it can be very important for me, because 25 years ago there was a very hard censhorship here (I´m from Spain) and I´ve learned how valuable it´s freedom because of that. If you want you can buy the game I´m not pushing you to not-buy the game in any manner, so you are free to buy it if you want, but if I want I will not do it.

I posted all that because I want the people to know which my reasons are, if I don´t post people will not know it, simple.

However my apologies if with my "tone" or "exaltation" (mispelling?) I damaged someone feelings.

However it would be cool to know why it´s 20 euros cheaper for Germany.

[ July 23, 2002, 09:33 AM: Message edited by: KNac ]

[PawBroon]

Originally posted by KNac:

I think that finally the guys at CDV (which it´s not their fault that that law exist) decide to supply the rest of european countries with the original version.

You're missing something said by Steve in earlier such Threads.

CDV can NOT do that.

The Law not only forbid a German company to do what is discussed here in Germany but elsewhere AS WELL.

Period.

Seeing SS or not is not aggravating.

Changing my DVD Drive and not being able to install BF.C's patches if any is what concern me the most.

It has been said and again, go get one of your PBEM friends from outside CDV's Zone to send you the game...

Now you'd be nice if you'd give the guys a break.

They signed a deal with CDV.

A good deal I'm sure because I trust BF.C and if CMBO is any indicative of their sense of judegment, they know their turf.

A good deal is one which helps you producing CM** with Africa, the Balkans, Corea etc.

I'd rather play those and live with the CDV than entertain the romantic but stoopid idea that BF.C should have backed out of such a deal.

Trust them.

And stop yelling at them since they won't change a thing whether you like it or not.

The number of New Commers through CDV's retail will far outweighed any of us willing to call it quits for a simple Semantic point of view.

And in case you're wondering, I'll be receiving my version through the US of A.

[Vanir Ausf B]

I think people should calm down about the SS naming thing. As has been pointed out, it is already possible to change the names of units in CMBO. It stands to reason that this will likely be the same in CMBB, so it will end up being much ado about nothing.

The only relevant issue is the copy protection, but since we do not know what form of copy protection they are using it is all speculation.

[ July 23, 2002, 09:38 AM: Message edited by: Vanir Ausf B ]

[KNac]

(read in the edited post before yours to know why I was "yelling")

However can I buy the game directly from BFC or not? Anyway I think that there is a online company which imports games from USA (and other countries) I´ve bought some other games from there and they have a good service, so if not possible I will check if they have it in the list.

I know all this can sound strange to a lot of people but for me and other (on here) those "stupid" thing can be very painful, trust me.

[Urban Shocker]

The real question is: Could a mosquito fly from Italy to the United States, pick up a copy of CMBB, then fly back to Italy?

[coralsaw]

Worst thing of all, IMO, would be that the CDV copy-protection gizmo may very well delay patches for a week or two after the US version comes out.

I've seen it happen with Europa Universalis II and many other games.

I'll also buy the US version. It sux having units named the wrong way...

/coralsaw

[Vanir Ausf B]

Originally posted by KNac:

However can I buy the game directly from BFC or not?

Probably not. Moon posted a list of countries that are covered by the CDV agreement a while ago in another thread. Most (all?) Western European countries are in it. BFC is not allowed to sell direct to these countries as it would violate its distribution agreement with CVD.