Helping the AI give you a REAL fight!

[Mercury]

I've been searching for a way to get the AI to challenge me more in battles where it is anything but the defender. Here are some thoughts that you may wish to try out:

These thoughts are based around a meeting engagement operation I devised in a town on a small map (less than 1km square. About a company strenth force is used, a little less for me, a little more for the AI.

The AI is solid but inflexible so in my experience the game against it always reaches a critical point and when it has been broken it lacks the initiative to recover and fight back....the game generally becomes a walk in the park as you overwhelm its forces when a human would clearly do something far more 'logical' and unpredictable!

So how do we avoid this? Well I set a maximum battle length of 15 turns. This gives you enough time to launch assaults and be decisive but not quite enough time to wipe the floor with the AI, unless you are a miracle worker.

Thus the AI is never quite smashed and lives to fight on.

Secondly I drip feed reinforcements to both sides every turn, a few support weapons, couple of tanks or artillery observers. Always ensuring the AI gets the edge in points, generally, I make sure the AI gets at least a full platoon or two every battle, along with the other reinforcements.

But don't overdo this or the game becomes cumbersome.

Divide the objectives so there is one clearly in between the forces and one each for the two setup zones. All of the same value.

All the above seem to result in tense battles with a genuine challenge from the AI. It still does stupid things from time to time but the time limit prevents you really going to town.

Anyway, there you go! I've done this and had a real maelstrom of a fight on my hands! great fun.

[Mercury]

Oops! I drip feed reinforcements every BATTLE, not every turn. Sorry :eek:

[Louie the Toad]

Try This:

Play FTCR

Play vs AI

Play any battle, no special set up needed

Play small ones at first.

Results:

More realistic, no godlike view

The AI is tough, but don't YOU cheat.

Prepare to lose.

Not my opinion -- My experience.

(IMCME) -- In My CM Experience --- Toad

[kevinkins]

FTCR?

[aka_tom_w]

Originally posted by Kevin Kinscherff:

FTCR?

Francko's True Combat Rules

Previously known as the Iron Man Rule set.

It means ONLY look at the battle from the view that your units can actualy see! You must (voluntarily) hop from unit it to unit and look around only using View level ONE! If you have a guy in the second floor of a building you can use view level 2. Something also about view level 3 if you are in the highest level of a church???

the rules are laid out somewhere on a web page in the forum.

the idea is GREAT if you have the self discpline to ONLY move around the battlefield by using + and - to hop from unit to unit and only use view level one..... Do that and try and tell us the AI is easy to beat! he he

-tom w

[ November 09, 2002, 12:05 PM: Message edited by: aka_tom_w ]

[kevinkins]

Ah yes ... thats what I thought it was.

Any idea how many play that way?

ie %

- Kevin

[Danzig]

Originally posted by Kevin Kinscherff:

Ah yes ... thats what I thought it was.

Any idea how many play that way?

ie %

- Kevin

Me for one.

Well, at least against the AI.

[Warlord69]

Depending on the size of the scenario, giving the AI an extra company or battalion CO can help a lot. Just to provide a little extra command and control of the AI's troops.

[marcusB]

Does anyone use FTCR playing against human opponents in PBEM games?

[White Phosphorus]

When playing FTCR how do you know what the map looks like? Are you supposed to draw your own map before the battle or what's the deal?

[Louie the Toad]

Regarding the map: You can take a screen shot at the beginning of the game and use it. Or in large scenarios I have indulged in using the map view from level 8 or so -- assuming as a company or larger commander that I had one. Enemy units appearing on the "map view" were there due to the info received from the field.

I have only played FTCR vs human once or twice and that was against my cousin Capt. Spauding.

Of course you must believe your opponent to be trustworthy. Which I do. He did however win the last one in a very surprising way, so the following 'blues' line comes to mind:

"nobody loves me but my momma, but I think she might be jivin' too" ....

'Can't win against the AI, I got the FTCR blues'......... Toad

[Silvio Manuel]

Red Hots! Getcha Red Hots!

Franko's True Combat Red Hots!

I've never used them b/c my MO is more towards racing about the map in view 4.

[Cull]

Just a related comment......

The biggest gripe I have on the enemy AI is that it seems awfully dumb about wasting troops in attacking, and it seems worse than in CMBO. I've had a number of battles where the AI will keep feeding infantry into the same location, even after it's had a bunch slaughtered by well-positioned defensive units. It appears incapable of changing plans and attacking at a different place, so, once you discover the AI's "schwerpunkt", it's pretty much game over. A few MGs covering the route can pile up some serious kills.

I've gotten used to upping the AI's numbers considerably to give it a chance. Sometimes it will have a little more success out of sheer numbers, but it still wastes a ton of men by insisting on one route of attack.

The worst is the fact that it also doesn't seem to use it's smoke very intelligently in the attack. Often, it's lost half it's numbers or more before it decides to put down a smoke screen, and by then it's usually too late.

I know this isn't anything new really. Maybe there might be a reasonably simple way to code the AI think "Okay, we've lost two-thirds of our men attacking up that draw/through those woods/whatever, let's try somewhere else".

Anyway, just babbling....maybe I should investigate the world of playing versus other humans

[Yeknodathon]

Originally posted by aka_tom_w:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Kevin Kinscherff:

FTCR?

Francko's True Combat Rules

Previously known as the Iron Man Rule set.

It means ONLY look at the battle from the view that your units can actualy see! You must (voluntarily) hop from unit it to unit and look around only using View level ONE! If you have a guy in the second floor of a building you can use view level 2. Something also about view level 3 if you are in the highest level of a church???

the rules are laid out somewhere on a web page in the forum.

the idea is GREAT if you have the self discpline to ONLY move around the battlefield by using + and - to hop from unit to unit and only use view level one..... Do that and try and tell us the AI is easy to beat! he he

-tom w</font>

[James]

Mercury: Interesting idea about using a small operation. I'll try it out. By the way whay size no mans land do you use?

[Panzer76]

Play as Italians or Romaniens. Give ur self -30%, give AI +2 experience lvl.

[Hans]

I've done that type of battle on CMBO, but I used a small map and never more than 400 points. It can be very confusing, especially in a defense.

One thing I do use is to use the 8 setting at the start to give myself the advantage of "looking at the map". I find a sketch map helps one to find things, like the objectives!

[aka_tom_w]

Hi Alex

funny you should mention that:

"Is this not going some way to resolve borg spotting? Code something to a limited view of one level while moving around the battlefield with + and - ?"

That suggestion appears somewhere in this Monumental 8 page thread:

http://www.battlefront.com/cgi-bin/bbs/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=1;t=024461;p=

http://www.battlefront.com/cgi-bin/bbs/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=1;t=024461;p=4

from this page:

http://www.battlefront.com/cgi-bin/bbs/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=1;t=024461;p=5

if you are REALLY interested you should probably read all the posts in the entire 8 page thread

" aka_tom_w

Member

Member # 1515

posted April 23, 2002 07:00 AM

quote:

Originally posted by Captain Wacky:

quote:

Originally posted by Vanir Ausf B:

It could be argued that doing so would be more realistic but who cares

about realism if the game is a bore to play?

Grogs. They'll suffer through a crappy but realistic game sheerly out of some mysteriously

deep sense of "duty" towards realism, but not necessarily the game itself

Good Point and I agree with it. Since this "Grog Factor" is a very narrowly defined (and SMALL ok,

tiny) market segement would it be possible to call this Fog of War setting "Extreme Groginess"

FOW.? And make it the most DEMANDING on the player FOW setting?

How will it work:

(I'm glad you Asked )

The player must lose some control of units out of C&C. More than in CMBO but NOT complete loss of

control.

Units out of C&C cannot give the player any spotting info that would positively ID any enemy units

they have spotted or are in contact with. (only nationality markers are revealed to the player by units

out of C&C) (the newer enhanced TAC AI and SOP's will allow that friendly unit out of C&C to engage

in fire fights with that unidentified nationality marker, or hide or run away) and you the Player "may"

(or May not) see the casualities and unit strength go down and you would NOT know what that unit (

that was not in C&C ) was fighting with.)

(Hence, KILL all the opponent's HQ units and you have effectively blinded your opponent )

Units out of C&C are controled by the player somewhat but are extremely compromised by command

delays. (Tac AI can perhaps Spawn some NCO HQ units after the loss of the HQ ??)

All units, and Units out of C&C, could benefit from NEW enhanced command tools like Standing

Orders or SOPs, and the addtion of enhanced TAC AI.

The enemy units can ONLY be viewed by the player while the player has the friendly unit selected (only in view level 1, (?) that one may be a sticky point, maybe from any view level to make the game actually FUN and playable) that originally spotted the unit.

Of course every friendly unit must make its own spotting check to ID enemy units. (Given that you can only see the enemy unit FROM the perspective of the unit that spotted it, it is possible for two friendly units to positively ID an enemy unit and both be WRONG).

One friendly unit may see an opposing tank and positively ID's it as a StuG (from their perspective

when you the Player Selects that unit and therefore see only their perspective) and another different

friendly unit, across the map, sees the same (or another near-by tank maybe there are two tanks

and you the Player at this point cannot know the whole story) tank and Positively ID's it as a Hetzer

(the tank in question may in fact be a well hidden StuH they think they see or a Mark IV LANG?) From

the Allied perspective friendly Inf can ALWAYS ID Pz Mark IV's as Tigers, but CMBO already does that

NOW thats Fog Of WAR!

The player should ONLY see the enemy unit from the perspective of the friendly unit that ID'd the enemy in the first place. This will allow for completely realistic conflicting reports in the early stages of a battle.

Hows that so far?

-tom w"

Don't worry this suggestion is not the only Relative Spotting idea. That thread goes ON and ON and many other folks (much wiser than myself) have posted their opinions and suggestions. Steve also posts his views about what is ACTUALLY do-able and shares his vision of the future here . (Scroll down to the last 3-4 posts of the page, in order to ignore all the drivel in my other posts on that page )

More on Iron Man rules here .

"found here:

http://home.arcor.de/tcmhq/Nifranko.htm

FRANKO'S TRUE COMBAT RULES

1. INTRODUCTION. The following rules are designed to maximize the realism and immersion of

single-player play. Generally speaking, as the human player, you are not allowed to do use the tools

of the game interface for the purpose of doing anything your troops could not do in real life. All

rules set forth below must be construed according to that principle.

2. SELECTING UNITS. Only use the "+" or "-" keys to move from friendly unit to friendly unit. Then,

use the "tab" key. You can then only rotate in place to scan the surrounding terrain (imagine you are

where the unit is, and that you can only see what THAT unit can see..its pretty simple).

If there is friendly unit within the line of sight (LOS) of the unit you have currently selected, you

do not have to use the + and - keys. Instead, you can simply point and click on that target unit,

THEN hit the tab key. Any other way of accessing an enemy unit is forbidden.

3. VIEWING YOUR SURROUNDINGS.

A. PANNING. After accessing the unit and hitting the tab key(which orients the view of the unit

forward), you can only "look around" by using the pivot keys (1,3,7,9) on the keypad. In other

words,

you can pan 360 (your guys can turn around and look where they are).

B. BUILDINGS: If your units are in a building or he unit icon (such as vehicle), blocks your view,

you can use the "8" key to click ahead only such distance which is necessary to clear the sprite.

C. ELEVATED VIEWS. Once turns begin (after setup), you may use only the lowest-level view ("1" on

the

keyboard), unless the following apply:

1. If your unit occupies are a two-level building, you may use View 2 ("2" on the keyboard") from the

units location; and

2. If you are on the top floor of a church, you can use View 2 or View 3, whichever you prefer

Note: The Setup procedure may offer you further viewing options. See Rule __, Below.

4. ENEMY UNITS. You may not, under any circumstances, "click on" or "select" an enemy unit. Use

the

"N" key to select targets.

5. ZOOM KEYS. You may not use the "zoon key" (the brackets), unless the following exceptions

apply:

A. You may use up to Zoom 2x if you're unit you are "looking from" is platoon leader or above.

B. Your unit may use up to Zoom 4x if it has optics (e.g, an artillery observer, an AT gun, a tank).

If you really want to be anal, buttoned up tanks or tanks that suffered casualties can only use up to

zoom 4x in the direction of their turret facing, because, that's where the gunners optics are facing!

American tanks may not be able to zoom at all..we can debate that one later.

C. During Setup, under specified conditions (see below)

6. WEATHER. You must always have weather and fog set to "full"

7. SPECIAL SETUP RULES. The following setup rules apply depending on whether you are the

attacker,

defender, or if the battle is a meeting engagement.

A. Attacker: During setup you may use View Level 7 ("7" on the keyboard)to aid in setup, in addition

to the views you are permitted in Rules 1, 2, or 3, above. This "attacker's map" rule represents the

"map" your troop commander would use to help prepare your troops for the assault. Whether such a

map

is available should be specified in your briefing by the designer.

B. Defender: During setup you can use the map rule, above, if your signal corps has its act together.

In addition, you can freely move about the map in level 1, or view level 2 (or 3, if a church) if

that part of the map your viewing from is a multi-level building

C. Meeting Engagements. Both sides may only view using the Attacker's map rule, or from any spot

in

their setup zone (only). Again, if a spot in their setup zonehas a church or building, adjust

accordingly.

D. OPTIONAL RULE: During setup you may print out a map (by taking a screen shot and printing the

.bmp

file) for use during the battle. This map should be at the minimum View Level 7.

8. GAME SETTINGS. Use only "Realistic" Sized units. Always have "full terrain" on. Turn unit bases

and detailed armored hits "off". Generally speaking, use only those feature that the troops could

use. Needless to say, Fog of War is ALWAYS set to FULL!

Always interested in your input.

Frank M. Radoslovich"

All the best

-tom w

[ November 10, 2002, 08:09 AM: Message edited by: aka_tom_w ]

[CMplayer]

When the AI is defending, it doesn't seem to be able to think like this: I have lost one flag, but I have several more, so I will sit tight on them and make him come to me. Instead it lets its troops abandon good dug-in positions to try to retake the lost flag. This, of course, is suicidal, and is the trick to beating the AI. What it really needs is some kind of higher level planning layer, which compares points from casualties to the values of the flags, and from there makes decisions about how hard to contest various flags. Of course, that would be very time consuming to program.

[Mercury]

I use 80m James. But the only thinking behind that is because it is in a BUA. I'd probably make it larger for other terrain.