Degus Posted January 23, 2002 Share Posted January 23, 2002 After playing the scenario re-creating Wittmans feat at Villers Bocage I became curious about how his death came about but havn't been able to find anything on it other than he was ambushed in his Tiger by 3-5 Shermans and killed. Does anyone have any details on this? Was he killed by British or Americans? Where and when did it happen? Was the ambush a setup specifically for him? Was his whole crew killed? Was he alone or with other Tigers?...anyone?? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leta Posted January 23, 2002 Share Posted January 23, 2002 You can find detailed data about Wittman's death in the Achtung Panzer! page, here: Michael Wittmann as well as photographs of his smashed Tiger. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rune Posted January 23, 2002 Share Posted January 23, 2002 At scenario depot there is a scenario I created called Wittman's last hour. I based it on one set of facts I found.... Yes, the terrain was that bare, look at the photo from that site...... Rune Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Franko Posted January 24, 2002 Share Posted January 24, 2002 My scenario, "August Bank Holiday", should depict Wittman's demise. Modern evidence suggests strongly that he was'nt killed while "outnumbered". He died the "old fashioned way", by the crack shot of a competent firefly gunner at about 800 meters. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Franko Posted January 24, 2002 Share Posted January 24, 2002 My scenario, "August Bank Holiday", should depict Wittman's demise. Modern evidence suggests strongly that he was'nt killed while "outnumbered". He died the "old fashioned way", by the crack shot of a competent firefly gunner at about 800 meters. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Degus Posted January 24, 2002 Author Share Posted January 24, 2002 Leta's reply leads to a link detailing Wittmans death but is still confusing unless I misread it. The last two paragraphs are contradictory in that one claims that Wittmans's Tiger was knocked out by a Typhoon and the next states it was a well aimed shot from a Firefly. Thanx for the info tho. Interesting reading at Achtung Panzer! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Otto Posted January 24, 2002 Share Posted January 24, 2002 Sorry gentlemen you are all wrong. Wittmann and his crew, like so many other panzer crewman in France, 1944, were killer by allied fighter bombers, most likely Typhoons. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CombinedArms Posted January 24, 2002 Share Posted January 24, 2002 <blockquote>quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Otto: Sorry gentlemen you are all wrong. Wittmann and his crew, like so many other panzer crewman in France, 1944, were killer by allied fighter bombers, most likely Typhoons.<hr></blockquote> I'm not sure how you can claim that all of the above gentleman are wrong. Since one gentleman actually actually mentions the Typhoon story as a possiblity, that person would appear to be potentially right, at least as you define the term. But perhaps you object to anyone even entertaining a theory other than to one to which you dogmatically hold? Personally, though I haven't researched the subject myself, I tend to trust Franko's version of the event because I know him to be an extremely meticulous researcher who carefully weighs the evidence. I have read a very detailed account of the incident by him on an earlier thread. I also appreciate the civility and balance with which he presents his argument. People who argue rudely and dogmatically generally tend to blow their credibility with me right away. If you want your views to be attended to in this forum, perhaps you could learn to follow Franko's good example. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kingfish Posted January 24, 2002 Share Posted January 24, 2002 According to Ken Tout's book 'A fine night for tanks', Wittman was ambushed and killed by Joe Eskins (sp?), a Firefly gunner with the Northamptonshire Yeomanry. Ironically, after bagging Wittman and two other Tigers, Joe never fired another shot. He served out the rest of his tour as a loader in another Firefly. BTW, If you want a really good scenario depicting this action try "Cintheaux-Totalize" from Der Kessel. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leta Posted January 24, 2002 Share Posted January 24, 2002 <blockquote>quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Kingfish: [QB]According to Ken Tout's book 'A fine night for tanks', Wittman was ambushed and killed by Joe Eskins (sp?), a Firefly gunner with the Northamptonshire Yeomanry. Ironically, after bagging Wittman and two other Tigers, Joe never fired another shot. He served out the rest of his tour as a loader in another Firefly. QB]<hr></blockquote> I think Kingfish data are accurate. And Degus, if you read with care the "Achtung Panzer!" story you can find that, although the Typhoon theory seems possible, his death by a Firefly shot finally was proven. BTW, I didn't knew the Eskins tale. Good one, Kingfish. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John D Salt Posted January 28, 2002 Share Posted January 28, 2002 While there have been a number of conflicting claims as to who bagged Wittman, ISTM that the claim by 1 NY (as mentioned by Dr. Tout) is considerably better researched and more authoritative than any other. Wittman's grave (together with his crewmen) was discovered only a few years ago, and its location lends credence to the 1 NY claim. Touring the Normandy battlefields with a group of friends, I have visited three Wittman-related sites in successive years; first, Villers-Bocage, site of his most famous battle; second, the slope below St-Aignan-le-Cramesnil where he was killed by a 1 NY Firefly; and finally his last resting place at La Cambe cemetery. All the best, John. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Degus Posted January 28, 2002 Author Share Posted January 28, 2002 Apparantly there is still controversy over how Wittman died and we will perhaps never know for sure but this discussion raises more questions for me not related directly to his death, for instance: Witttman is credited with over 140? kills, mostly in the east which led me to wonder about his crews. Obviously, that kind of success in armored combat would require an elite crew as well as an able commander would it not? Were not the crew members at least as responsible for Wittmans' success as he was?....would a commander gifted in tactics be more invaluable than a gunner who who was dead on? or a fast loader?...so I'm wondering now...how were tankers chosen in the German army?..was it voluntary? Would Wittman, given his status, been allowed to handpick his crew?..Were Tiger crews in general handpicked?...see where I'm going with this? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Panther G Posted January 29, 2002 Share Posted January 29, 2002 <blockquote>quote:</font><hr> Obviously, that kind of success in armored combat would require an elite crew as well as an able commander would it not? <hr></blockquote> Definitely. <blockquote>quote:</font><hr> Were not the crew members at least as responsible for Wittmans' success as he was? <hr></blockquote> Not exactly. They played an important role, but the commander (Wittman) does a lot. He's the one who tells everyone else what to do. All other crew members have predesignated positions and duties (loader - loads, driver - drives, gunner - aims and fires...), but the commander has to juggle multiple tasks (commanding the rest of the crew). <blockquote>quote:</font><hr> would a commander gifted in tactics be more invaluable than a gunner who who was dead on? <hr></blockquote> Yes, although Wittman had both I believe. <blockquote>quote:</font><hr> or a fast loader? <hr></blockquote> Still, a commander would be better although, once again, Wittman had a fast loader too. <blockquote>quote:</font><hr> how were tankers chosen in the German army?..was it voluntary? <hr></blockquote> For an elite unit such as the one Wittman was in, yes, it was voluntary. I'm not sure about the rest of the army though... <blockquote>quote:</font><hr> Would Wittman, given his status, been allowed to handpick his crew? <hr></blockquote> Definitely, although his crew would probably stay with him unless wounded or KIA. <blockquote>quote:</font><hr> Were Tiger crews in general handpicked? <hr></blockquote> Depends on unit and date I would think. I hope this helps answer your questions, and yes, there is a Wiitman's final hour scenario (get it at the Scenario Depot - see link in sig) but it doesn't have a very good map IMHO. Regards, Ryan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bigdog Posted January 29, 2002 Share Posted January 29, 2002 All this talk about Wittman, has sparked my desire to play Cintheaux - Totalize By Helge "The Desert Fox" Bertram. I really want to play this one, but it’s a monster, bandwidth & CPU muscle is a must. I have played August A Bank Holiday and I enjoyed and highly recommend it. I have already seen the setup on Axis side(my opponent did not have the horses to play it). If there someone willing to take the Allies give me a yell. See if you can bag Wittman! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Wacky Posted January 29, 2002 Share Posted January 29, 2002 I would imagine it was very hot and sucky. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bigdog Posted January 29, 2002 Share Posted January 29, 2002 Got my game thanks! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bry Barnard Posted January 30, 2002 Share Posted January 30, 2002 "Panzers in Normandy - Then and Now" by Eric Lefreve gives lots of details on Wittman's demise, as well as the Villers Bocage battle. It was Eric L. who found Wittman's body during the investigation for the book. If you haven't got the book or seen it then I recommend getting sight of it, as the detail in it is really good. Definitely one to use for Normandy battles. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Degus Posted January 30, 2002 Author Share Posted January 30, 2002 Yikes! $49.95 at Amazon and 3-4 weeks to deliver..how about loaning me your copy? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rucrazee Posted February 1, 2002 Share Posted February 1, 2002 I haven't played too many large scenarios, but my interest was sparked to play August Bank Holiday v2 after reading this thread. I played as the Germans and I have to tell you this was one of the most intense and fun battles I have ever had versus the AI. When things got busy it was taking a minute and a half to 2 minutes to complete a turn, but it was worth every second. Due to a bit of armor sloppiness about a third of the way through, I hung on by my figernails for a 51 to 49 draw in my favor. Alas, poor Wittman was taken out by a FIREFLY , but he did take 5 tanks with him. If any of you haven't played this one, give it a whirl . Thanks Franko, this is a masterpiece of a scenario. Well done! [ February 01, 2002, 02:52 AM: Message edited by: rucrazee ] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Franko Posted February 1, 2002 Share Posted February 1, 2002 Thanks Franko, this is a masterpiece of a scenario. Well done![/QB]thanks for the kind words! I researched the HELL out of that one. Good to hear that so many people like it. F. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jagdtiger101 Posted February 5, 2002 Share Posted February 5, 2002 kingfish is correct that Wittman, Voss and the other crew were all knocked out by the Northants Yeomanry. One of my sources was 'Tank Aces' by George Forty (good read) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rucrazee Posted February 5, 2002 Share Posted February 5, 2002 Just spent many sleepless hours playing the other great scenario based on Wittman's demise, "Cintheaux-Totalize" from Der Kessel. This is an absolute monster and the turns take even longer to process than August Bank Holiday. Despite the turn wait, this scenario is also masterfully done. Great job by Helge "The DesertFox" Bertram and the guys at Der Kessel. I barely managed a minor Axis victory as the Germans vs the AI (no AI bonus). Despite trying to be careful, I lost every armored vehicle, but managed to hang on to 3 Tigers (one which was imobilized). No spoilers, but OMG, what monstrous tanks battles . Great job fellas. Try this one if you have the cpu horsepower. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bigdog Posted February 5, 2002 Share Posted February 5, 2002 Originally posted by rucrazee: Just spent many sleepless hours playing the other great scenario based on Wittman's demise, "Cintheaux-Totalize" from Der Kessel. This is an absolute monster and the turns take even longer to process than August Bank Holiday. Despite the turn wait, this scenario is also masterfully done. Great job by Helge "The DesertFox" Bertram and the guys at Der Kessel. I barely managed a minor Axis victory as the Germans vs the AI (no AI bonus). Despite trying to be careful, I lost every armored vehicle, but managed to hang on to 3 Tigers (one which was imobilized). No spoilers, but OMG, what monstrous tanks battles . Great job fellas. Try this one if you have the cpu horsepower.I am also playing this master piece as a PBEM, although it's early into this, it has been the most enjoyable CM scenario I have played! The map is a work of art. Right now I am full involved in 3 separate engagements all intense, the pucker value is a 10! If you’re a lover of larger battles and you have some Band-with & CPU horsepower you have to play this baby Rucrazee you should give a review of your experience at the Scenario Depot [ February 05, 2002, 11:07 AM: Message edited by: Bigdog ] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ex Bellator Posted February 5, 2002 Share Posted February 5, 2002 Good thread. As there are some Witmann grogs here, does anyone have any thoughts as to his possible state of mind around the time he died? I have read that he basically went out to stop an Army Corps alone with his unsupported platoon, which seems incredibly reckless to me and not what you'd expect from such a veteran. I wonder if had he gone past caring at that stage. Am I missing some information? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Franko Posted February 6, 2002 Share Posted February 6, 2002 Originally posted by Rex_Bellator: Good thread. As there are some Witmann grogs here, does anyone have any thoughts as to his possible state of mind around the time he died? I have read that he basically went out to stop an Army Corps alone with his unsupported platoon, which seems incredibly reckless to me and not what you'd expect from such a veteran. I wonder if had he gone past caring at that stage. Am I missing some information?WARNING: AUGUST BANK HOLIDAY SPOILER * * * * Based on my research, I would hazard to guess that his state of mind was "reckless" and more than a little arrogant. Or, simply stupid. Let me explain. Apparently, he was leading a group of four Tigers down the main highway toward Caen. I think his was the second tank in the column. His turret orientation (and most likely his personal orientation), was towards the left, say 45 degrees off his hull, and was sporadically exchanging fire with some Canadian armor. Unfortunately, there were enemies to his right: armor hidden in the Apple orchards ouside of St. Aignan. The evidence strongly suggests he took two firefly rounds (ouch) into the side Armor of the turret. The second round blew the the whole turret off the tank. Its a cliche, but he probably didn't even know what hit him. The other tigers were knocked out, too. I say "reckless" and "stupid" because just off to his right flank were a whole bunch of friendly Panzer IVs and Jagpanzers who were descending on St. Aignan, backed by about a battalion of 12th SS panzer grenadiers. If he would have waited and kept pace with the general advance, it would seem likely that his right flank would have been covered. However, he apparently shook hands with Kurt "Panzer" Meyer (who perhaps while in awe of the famous Witman, felt it odd to advise him to advance cautiously) and just barrelled on down the road, while his right flank slowly picked its way through a draw in front of the British lines. If Wittman would have been a tad more patient, he may have survived the engagement. Perhaps Wittman believed his own fawning press--remember only a few weeks had passed since his triumph at Villers Bocage: he just went on "tour", doing perhaps the Nazi equivalent of war bond rallies, before returning to the front (many of the pictures taken of him are during this period). Then, he promptly gets killed committing a rookie mistake. Most of the Germans knew that the British had occupied the Apple Orchard the night before. There were remnants of German wehrmacht units in the area. "Panzer" Meyer had talked to them. There was really no excuse for heading into battle completely exposed towards a couple of hundred British/Canadian tanks. However, to Wittman's credit, there were a group of B-17s passing over the area, and this caused the Meyter to quicken the advance and seek to close with the British -- rather than being blown to atoms in their assembly areas. Maybe this caused Wittman to hurry, too. What seems certain is that the truth of Wittman's state of mind was consumed in a firey horrifying instant caused by the crack shot of a Northant yeoman. Frank Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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