Crew survivability in the Tiger VI question

[JAK]

This is a question for the grogs I guess. How survivable was a Tiger in action? Did they have a tendency to flake inside after recieving hits from 75mm armed sherms, and how would the Tiger stand up to T-34's?

Jake

[ February 15, 2002, 03:16 PM: Message edited by: JAK ]

[Mattias]

As far as I have seen, and I have read a few books on it, that was not a weaknesses encountered, to any abnormal degree, in the Tiger.

In straight up engagements the Tiger will be an extremely tough opponent for a T-34. With it's mobility the T-34 can cause trouble but a Tiger is really too big a bite for it. Especially at 500 to 1500 meters life will be rough for the Soviet player.

The arrival of the 85mm gun will improve things a bit but it will never be easy.

M.

[MikeyD]

An observation.

I recall seeing photos of multiple test shots of 6 pounder against a Tunisia Tiger I. The side shots that didn't penetrate (if memory serves) did create ghastly frisbee-size flakes on the opposite side of the armor. I've seen similar shots against a Tiger I turret side in Russia. If you compare these to penetration photos on Sherman hull fronts the U.S. steel looks more ductile- like it bent instead of broke.

[Commissar]

About the only way for a T-34 to take on a Tiger realistically was for it to get it very close. By 1943, the 76.2 just didn't have the umph to penetrate the Tiger's armor. You might get lucky with a flank or rear shot if you got up close, otherwise the T-34 was toast. The T-34/85 had a better chance since it had the improved gun, but the 85 was still not up to the old German 88mm. If you ever meet a Tiger in CMBB and all you have are T-34s, you better use your superior mobility and terrain to get in close and shove a 76.2 or 85mm round up the Tiger's backside. For all that is holy, do not get involved in a long range duel with those German tank crews.

[JAK]

I've heard here and there that the Tiger's reputation was made in the early years and that it wasnt't really a super tank in the '44-'45 years, but there seems to be alot to refute that expecially when that 88 was such a powerful weapon. Will the Tiger be a more heavy hitting unit in CM:BB unlike in CM:BO? If so I think that the Tiger will finally show why it was so feared.

Jake

[Barrold]

I think the extra range that CM:BB is supposed to involve will allow the advantage of the 88mm to reach out and touch someone and show off the Tiger a bit better, but we'll see won't we. I am sure we will find out lots about weapons of the GPW as we did with CMBO.

I can't wait to see because I have loved seeing how many T-34's I could destroy since playing 'Panzerblitz' against my good friend in tenth grade.

"Oh Yeah" - Duffman

BDH

[JasonC]

Tigers should have been invunerable to T-34/76s. And invunerable to 45mm ATGs. Just going by the armor stats. But the curious fact is that when 50-odd Tigers spearheaded a major corps sized armor attack at Kursk, in a matter of days only a few of them were still operational. Some would be mechanical breakdowns not directly caused by enemy action, but in such a short period, enemy action had to have a lot to do with it.

Most were probably dinged to near wrecks by rounds that failed to actually penetrate. As in sprocket wheels perforated, tracks broken, suspension bars broken, the final drive out of commission, sights and vision blocks smashed, barrels holed, fuel cells ruptured on the lower hull sides and leaking, etc. Just really, really banged around by a blizzard of AP, accumulating many hits over time, from 14.5mm ATRs up to 76mm tank guns.

There is invunerable and there is "mostly" invunerable, to paraphrase Miracle Max. "Mostly" invunerable is partially vunerable, which is nearly destructible. In CM terms, enough hits will eventually score immobilization and gun damaged results, enough of them to wreck tanks for all immediate and practical purposes. Of course, in the meantime the 88L56 will kill people and break things far more easily than that, making them highly effective weapons. But not "untouchable".

The same will probably be true of KV-1s facing early German tanks. The German 75L24 and 50L42 guns are not going to kill KVs, especially not at range. But many tanks and a high ROF for each may inundate one and again effectively wreck it with accumulated non-"fatal" hits. 50 AP hits on one tank will do things to it, even if no single round fully penetrates the armor. We see the same sort of effect in CM today e.g. from the 40mm Bofors or 37mm FLAK.

[JAK]

Was the Tiger used as a line breacher? I assumed that the Wehrmacht and the Waffen SS used the Tiger as a defensive and line holding panzer with limited counterattack capability. Wouldn't the Panthers be a far faster vehical once the problems with the air filter were resolved? Or were Tigers, as far as heavy panzer go, far more likely to be used in a concentration for this purpose than panthers (ie were panthers placed in a unit with a different TO&E than a Tiger unit and with a different mission than a Tiger unit)?

Jake

[ February 15, 2002, 08:11 PM: Message edited by: JAK ]

[JasonC]

Panthers are faster, but faster and better attacking are not equivalent. The main strength of the Tiger is the strong side and rear armor. The Panther is quite thin on the sides. It is much harder to avoid exposing side plates to somebody, when attacking than when defending. The defender can stay at long range pointed at known attackers, hide behind slopes, decamp before the enemy gets too close, etc. So it is much easier to exploit strong front-only armor defensively, than offensively.

As for unit assignments, the Panthers were in the regular panzer regiments of the panzer divisions, after the initial experimental phase (which used independent brigades). They were used alongside Pz IVs in every role that called for armor of any kind.

The Tigers were far more scarce. Initially they were assigned in company strength (a relatively small unit, in other words) to some panzer divisions, and used precisely as spearhead tanks. Later they were assigned to independent battalions of 45 held at the panzer corps or panzer army level. In principle, they were then supposed to be committed as a body in battalion strength. In practice, they were often still parcelled out in company strength to sub-units.

They were used as fire-brigade "alert units" to seal off breakthroughs and deliver counterattacks, yes. Also to lead attacks when the Germans conducted them, however.

[Mattias]

It is interesting to note that in the "Tigerfibel", the popular training manual, the danger zone for the Tiger in relationship to a 7.62 cm "long" mounted on the T-34 i presented as being a 500 meter zone to the front and 1500 meters to the sides and rear. The respect for the enemies weapons thus extended further out than perhaps pure penetration tables would indicate.

And, of course, in real life the Tiger crew would present themselves at an angle to threats whenever possible, thus maximising the effect of their armour.

Now some repetition, but not entirly.

Well, strictly speaking it was not the job of the Panzer Divisionen to breach the line as much as it was to passing through it and pour on into the hinterland. The Panther was, unlike the Tiger, a Panzer Division tank, intended to replace the aging Pz. IV in the role as primary maneuver unit in these divisions, the side armour only playing a secondary role in the context of a divisional attack.

The Tigers was assigned to independent Schweren Panzer-Abteilungen (Battalions) from day one. Day one being May 1942 here, when the 501 and 502 sPzAbt. where set up. The only reason they were deployed in smaller units at first was that the vehicles themselves were not yet produced in sufficient numbers. The four Tigers that advanced on the Soviets lines back in late August 1942 only constituted a platoon, but nevertheless did so organised as as part of the 1./502. And this was a pattern that was to be repeated time and again for the first several months, and would so yet again once the decay of German strength set in later on.

It was in early 1943 that the Tigers appeared as part of heavy companies within a number of Panzer divisions, SS 1st, 2nd and 3d for example. But the number of Tigers deployed in this fashion never equaled the number deployed in the sPz Abteliungen.

In all formations the Tigers were used as Schwerpunkt weapons both on the offence and in the defence, aiding the own "breaching" of the line and stopping enemy breakthroughs.

Just as the 1941 confrontation between T34's and early German armour, will the 1943 confrontation between the Pz VIE and it's Soviet contemporaries be a point where historical fact, popular conceptions and game engine will converge. Collide or, in the best of worlds, merge into one.

M.

[ParaBellum]

In "Die deutsche Panzertruppe" by Jentz is an interesting account about a Tiger.

On Februar 10th 1943 a battle group with some Tigers attacked a state farm near Sserernikovo.

The tank commander after the battle counted 227 hits by AT rifles, 14 hits by 5,7cm and 4,5cm Pak and 11 hits by 7,62cm Pak and a close quarter attack with explosives.

The tracks and wheels had been heavily damaged, the gun had been knocked out and the engine caught fire which could be put out quickly.

With all these damages the Tiger still managed to advance for another 60km.

It was concluded that the Tiger tank provides outstanding protection for the crew even under heavy fire.

[Yaphank]

Bumped-

Because I like Tigers

[ParaBellum]

Originally posted by Yaphank:

Bumped-

Because I like Tigers

Bumping a thread that's no.2 on the first page?

You really must like Tigers...

[Blenheim]

I also love them.... .

BUMP !

[JAK]

Does anybody have accounts of the damage that Tigers could take and keep on fighting (like Parabellums)? If a tiger absorbed that much damage in CM:BO people would be in an uproar! How many times in the Villers Bocage scenario did Wittmans Tiger VIE get thrashed by Stuarts? To many for my liking but that is hopefully something they will change in CM:BB.

Jake

[JAK]

I did some digging and came up with some really neat stuff on Michael Wittmann= "Wittmann's next major action was during Operation Zitadelle(better known as the Battle of Kursk). Early in the afternoon of the first day of operations, Wittmann heard over the radio that another platoon of tigers was under attack by a number of Soviet T34s. Immediatly he swung his vehicle around and passed through a wooded area where he found himself behind the enemy anti-tank gun line. He then realized that he was at the rear of the Soviet tanks which were in action against the Tigers who had radioed for help. One panzer of that group was already out of action and ablaze. While two other Tigers in his platoon engaged the anti-tank guns, Wittmann went into action against the T34s and within minutes destroyed three Russian tanks. Soon after that his vehicle was hit and lost a track. The Divisions' efficient workshops organization soon had it running again, and by the end of the day Wittmann had destroyed eight enemy tanks and seven anti-tank guns. It has been claimed that his individual efforts had helped II SS Panzer Corps drive a salient 20km deep into the positions held by 52nd Guards Infantry Division.

Later in the year, in November 1943, actions around Zhitomir once again proved Wittman's tactical leadership. In anticipation of a new Russian offensive, German High Command decided to stirke a pre-emptive blow against the Soviet armor, dispersing it and capturing the town of Brusilov. In an engaement that saw Wittman's platoon slip behind a group of Russian T34s that had a small number of Tigers pinned down, two more T34s were added to Wittmann's kill total. A third T34 tried to ram his Tiger, and when that failed the Russian crew left their vehicle and climbed onto the Tiger, intending to destroy it with hand granades. Wittmann shot them off using a machine pistol. The other AFVs of the Heavy Panzer Company then rolled into the clearing to finish off the rest of the T34s Wittmann had surprised."

If every tiger had a commander like wittmann the war would have been alot longer it seems. The account of the T-34's pinning down several Tigers also shows to me that the Panzer Truppe respected the Soviet tankers and their equipment.

Jake

[sturmtiger101]

Originally posted by JAK:

Does anybody have accounts of the damage that Tigers could take and keep on fighting (like Parabellums)? If a tiger absorbed that much damage in CM:BO people would be in an uproar! How many times in the Villers Bocage scenario did Wittmans Tiger VIE get thrashed by Stuarts? To many for my liking but that is hopefully something they will change in CM:BB.

Jake

JAK,

A report issued from Guderien's Gen. Inspecter der Panzertruppen office, circa May 1943, mentioned an engagement involving a Tiger of s/503, one of the first Tiger tank battalions formed. the action took place during the counter offensive to retake Kharkov in Operation Fredericus, late Feb - early March '43. Forget the exact wording but esssentially the account described that one Tiger I took eleven 76mm AT hits, six + 57mm, over 30 anti tank rifle hits, and ran over at least one AT mine. The road wheels looked like swiss cheese with their rubber rims gone from several, several axles / torsion bars were broken, the radiators were full of holes, the main gun barrel was perforated, all sheet metal and outer top-hamper ( smokecandles, etc. ) were shot away and the armour of the vehicle was pock-marked like a bad case of pimples on a pizza eatin' teenager. The commander's drum cupola was sprung and some main weld seams were also cracked. But, the armour had in no case been penetrated, and the crew were unscathed, if understandibly shaken, and reportedly, the vehicle still traveled another 60 kilo's after the days fighting. Ultimitley, the repair shop of the battalion decided to write this vehicle off, however, due to the cummulitive damage and the sprung weld seams. Still, in terms of crew survivability, I believe the Tiger provided a greater ratio of saftey comparable to its' contemporaries.

Cheers,

Eric Tuggle

[sturmtiger101]

To those of you who, like me, have a special warm - fuzzy place for Tigers, AND have the spare bucks to shell out, T. Jentz and his " Tiger I & II Combat Tactics " has plenty of after action reports, both of succesful and not-so-succesful variety. It also contains plenty of performance data as well as reports of tests done by the Allies on captured examples to measure the beasts mettle. Very nice, gives a good feeling of what the crews and commanders thought of fighting in a Tiger and their experiances on different fronts.

Cheers,

Eric Tuggle

[DaveN]

I think the Tiger in this game had to be neutered to give the Allied players a chance of winning because there is now way hell this thing keeps getting its armor penetrated by BB shooting piats..It will probably be neutered even more when the T-34's come..I guess they have to do it because no-one would play the Allied side

[JAK]

It seems that if a tiger could take that much damage (and this has happened multiple times) that a tiger in CM:BO is just a shadow of its true self. If you get a hit on a tiger with a 76mm AT gun it is a sure kill and that is made suspect by the amount of 76.2mm AT rounds absorbed by the Tigers mentioned here. My question is, if the T-34 originally mounted a 76mm gun and couldn't usually hope to kill a Tiger with that and the 85mm upgrade still wasn't exactly enough than how could the 57mm and 75mm 76mm AT/Tank guns hope in any way to kill a Tiger in real life as easily as they do in CM:BO? I think there are some serious discrepencys here and hopefully its not to late to fix them for CM:BB. A suggestion on this would be to increase the rarity costs (since the tank was held at the Corp or Division level IIRC) and make the Tiger as tough as it was in real combat.

Jake

[Silvio Manuel]

Perhaps in CM:BO the Tigers are facing 57/75/76mm AT rounds at a much closer range than was typically the case on the Ostfront. How often to you find your Tiger being at ranges from 500-1000m from a 76mm gun?

That might account for the CM:BO Tiger's easier deaths compared to the near-invincible Tiger accounts given above.

[ParaBellum]

Originally posted by JAK:

It seems that if a tiger could take that much damage (and this has happened multiple times) that a tiger in CM:BO is just a shadow of its true self. If you get a hit on a tiger with a 76mm AT gun it is a sure kill and that is made suspect by the amount of 76.2mm AT rounds absorbed by the Tigers mentioned here. My question is, if the T-34 originally mounted a 76mm gun and couldn't usually hope to kill a Tiger with that and the 85mm upgrade still wasn't exactly enough than how could the 57mm and 75mm 76mm AT/Tank guns hope in any way to kill a Tiger in real life as easily as they do in CM:BO? I think there are some serious discrepencys here and hopefully its not to late to fix them for CM:BB.

JAK just because two guns have the same caliber doesn't mean they offer the same performance. The russian 76mm and the US 76mm are not the same guns.

The russian 7,62L41 gun of the T34 had a muzzle velocity of 625m/s. At 500m it penetrated 75mm of 30° sloped armour.

The US 76mm guns had a muzzle velocity of 793m/s. It penetrated 89mm of 30° sloped armour.

With HVAP (Tungsten) rounds the US 76mm penetrated 169mm of 30° sloped armour.

So your asumption that the Tiger in CMBO is "just a shadow of itself" isn't true.

The performance of the russian 7,62cm gun is comparable to the US 75mm gun of the "vanilla" Shermans.

Take 10 Shermans with 75mm guns, place them 1000m away form a Tiger and see what happens.

Same results if the distance is much shorter.

You'll see countless shots bounce off the Tiger's armour and many dead Shermans...

[ February 17, 2002, 12:19 PM: Message edited by: ParaBellum ]