FO killed Last orders stand and fire mission continues until ammo expended? (request)

[aka_tom_w]

FO killed:

Last orders stand and fire mission continues until all rounds expended

As the title says.

Is it too late to lobby for this in CMBB.

I have no idea if this is easy to code or not.

BUT if my arty FO gets killed and he already has a request in for a fire mission and it is either waiting on the timer (counting down) or the rounds are actually falling, why do they stop when the FO gets killed? (in CMBO)

Does anyone know if this has been addressed in CMBB?

Thanks

-tom w

[ June 12, 2002, 09:24 AM: Message edited by: aka_tom_w ]

[Juju]

There is of course no way of telling for the battery if said plotted target isn't by now in friendly hands, for instance. SOP I'm sure. Someone will be along very shortly with the long version of your answer.

Cue...

[ June 12, 2002, 10:34 AM: Message edited by: Juju ]

[Doug Beman]

a) Artillery fire depends upon correction from the spotting party. If the artillery unit loses contact with the FO, they cease firing because, otherwise, they'd be firing completely blindly.

In present CM, where artillery is a "fire until I tell you to stop" affair, the artillery ceases because there's nobody there to keep calling in the fire, correcting, etc. Furthermore, there's nobody there to tell the artillery to STOP firing! Would you want your artillery to just keep launching rounds, with no way to stop them?

c) This can only be altered when artillery is based on a specific, unique fire mission. The FO radios back an order for "X rounds at map coordinates 123ABC." If the FO is killed, the arty unit would complete their fire mission (losing any gain in accuracy because they've lost their correction source) and then sit and wait for a new fire mission (which will never come in because the FO is dead)

DjB

[aka_tom_w]

"b) "Would you want your artillery to just keep launching rounds, with no way to stop them?"

well, actually yes

If the order was given I would prefer the rounds continue to come down where I have last ordered them, than simply stop when the FO is killed.

Now the lesson here is (OF COURSE) not to get your FO's killed

but I have managed to get them killed by lucky hits of opposing arty and it means loseing all of their very valuable fire power.

the accidental loss of a FO from a lucky arty or mortar hit can be quite a loss, so I thought I would make the unlikely request that they could keep firing on their last orders until the ammo ran out. :confused:

If that is totally unrealistic then I must be the first to admit maybe it is not a good thing to add to the game. The Problem is I REALLY hate losing my FO's to fluke shots when I figure I'm being VERY careful with them.

-tom w

[ June 12, 2002, 11:08 AM: Message edited by: aka_tom_w ]

[Michael Emrys]

Originally posted by aka_tom_w:

The Problem is I REALLY hate loosing my FO's to fluke shots when I figure I'm being VERY careful with them.

War is hell, ain't it?

Michael

[JonS]

Originally posted by aka_tom_w:

If that is totally unrealistic then I must be the first to admit maybe it is not a good thing to add to the game.

It's really not that unrealistic, but as Doug's post points out there are lots of things which 'should' change WRT arty FO modeling. Including the continuation of a firemission upon the demise of the FO is only one of them.

Regards

JonS

[Silvio Manuel]

Imagine if your dead FO's still had their fire mission go on until they ran out of ammo.

Then imagine if you had to grab a flag in the last few rounds, but your own 170mm rounds (from the dead FO) are STILL falling, now preventing you from occupying the VL!

[ June 12, 2002, 09:38 PM: Message edited by: Silvio Manuel ]

[Pascal DI FOLCO]

Worst than that : imagine your 250mm Rocket FO is killed by its *own* stray rockets and they continue to pound your troops ...

[Farslayer]

Maybe we could get an arty-grog in here. I'd like to see it work like the real thing.

FO's can place "spotting round" requests that will drop a single shell, oh, twice or so a turn.

When desired, change the mission over to an FFE request for the big bang.

If your FO "loses contact", i.e., goes toes up, during the spotting rounds, the battery would stop.

If the FO dies during the FFE, well, life is tough sometimes, and the battery would continue to fire the full mission.

It would be nice if you could request N rounds for a given fire mission...

[aka_tom_w]

Originally posted by Farslayer:

.....

If the FO dies during the FFE, well, life is tough sometimes, and the battery would continue to fire the full mission.

Thats the change I'm looking for

-tom w

[Michael Emrys]

Originally posted by aka_tom_w:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Farslayer:

.....

If the FO dies during the FFE, well, life is tough sometimes, and the battery would continue to fire the full mission.

Thats the change I'm looking for </font>

[CMsoldier]

Originally posted by Pascal DI FOLCO:

Worst than that : imagine your 250mm Rocket FO is killed by its *own* stray rockets and they continue to pound your troops ...

yeah, i wouldnt really want to run into my own 14 inch bombardment.

[Pak40]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think the Fire Missions worked like the following scenario (please excuse me if I don't use the exact lingo or terminology):

1. The FO would call in to the battery command and request a fire mission. Example: "This is Charlie One, I need an immediate mission at (x coordinate) and (y coordinate). Request 200, over."

2. The battery command would confirm if they are able and willing to comply for the mission, and then confirm location, possibly giving appoximate time for the spotting rounds to fall.

3. The battery command contacts FO to inform spotting rounds are firing.

4. Upon the falling of the spotting rounds, the FO then corrects the rounds and then calls for Fire For Effect. Example "Left 50, plus 100, Fire For Effect! over!"

5. The battery command confirms correction and drop count: "Left 50, plus 100, Drop 200, Over"

6. The fire mission comes in(all 200 rounds) without any more intervention or communication from the FO, unless he wishes to correct or halt the FFE.

If I'm the lease bit correct, then the mission would continue even if the FO was killed.

[Michael Dorosh]

Originally posted by Farslayer:

Maybe we could get an arty-grog in here.

Look up dude, he was just here. Goes by the name of JonS.

[Michael Emrys]

Originally posted by Pak40:

6. The fire mission comes in(all 200 rounds)...

Except that 200 rounds is a pretty big mission for a battery. It's even slightly heavy for a battalion, though not unreasonably so. Of course it all depends on the circumstances, and these could vary widely, but in a CM style firefight, a battery might drop 20-50 rounds and then move on to support other actions.

Michael

[Pak40]

Originally posted by Michael emrys:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Pak40:

6. The fire mission comes in(all 200 rounds)...

Except that 200 rounds is a pretty big mission for a battery. It's even slightly heavy for a battalion, though not unreasonably so. Of course it all depends on the circumstances, and these could vary widely, but in a CM style firefight, a battery might drop 20-50 rounds and then move on to support other actions.</font>

[rune]

From the Past:

http://www.battlefront.com/discuss/Forum1/HTML/009568.html

Something to think about.

Rune

[aka_tom_w]

Originally posted by rune:

From the Past:

http://www.battlefront.com/discuss/Forum1/HTML/009568.html

Something to think about.

Rune

Great find Rune !

Thanks

it was a good read.

-tom w

[JonS]

I've been thinking about FOs in CMBO a bit recently - oddly enough Anyway, I came up with a proposal for their cost, and is related to how much the FO is used, rather than some arbitrary initial cost.

My base assumption is that in the Real World, FOs could always call for more fire, but the opportunity cost for such an action is that the guns cannot then be used to support another part of the battle. It is this flexibility, and opportunity cost, that is IMHO not well reflected with the current CMBO modelling.

So, in CM have a base cost for FOs which is largeluy the same for all types, and there is no set limit on the number of rounds that the FO can call in. But, the 'cost' of the FO (or the VPs awarded to the opponent) goes up the more you use him to call in fire, with the cost rising either lineraly or exponentially depending on stuff (calibre, nationality, etc.).

Thus, you have a fairly cheap FO, and if no worthwhile target appear, you don't use him, freeing the guns for use 'elsewhere', costing you little more than your initial purchase price.

Or, you buy an FO, use it with gay abandon, firing willy nilly all over the map, burning up heaps of ammo and tying up the guns. This is ok too, but it costs you at the end of the battle. So, maybe you kill every last enemy unit on the board, but you used so much artillery to do it that you still lose the scenario.

Or, you use the FO with some discretion - heavily where required, though not everywhere, and knowing that you can always call more fire in if you need to, but bearing in mind the effect it has on your score.

I suppose another way of saying this is that you pay for the FO at the end of the battle with victory points, rather than at the start with purchase points.

In additon to the above, flexible changes in the number of guns that each FO represents, different distributions of fall of shot, a fireplanning tool, the ability to lay down TRPs during a battle, etc, would all be welcome too

FWIW

Regards

JonS

[ June 14, 2002, 10:30 PM: Message edited by: JonS ]

[JonS]

Shameless self-bump

[NightGauntt]

actually, i wouldn't mind seeing a slightly modified version of your idea JonS.

1. Different costs based on shells available, ie a listing for 81mm FO with 60 shells, one with 120, etc.

2. A variable amount of shells available at purchase time, IE you can buy as many shells as you want, but the cost changes

3. or a "base price" FO, and at the end of the game VPs for shells expended. So if you don't use them, it only cost you the base price.

edit

4. and of course the best and probably most difficult, is the ability to call in fire missions with an FO. IE right click on FO to bring up orders menu, select fire mission, select amount of rounds, and then put target location as normal.

[ June 16, 2002, 05:43 PM: Message edited by: NightGauntt ]