River Fords

[ashted]

Foot Infantry can cross fords but NO vehicles can use a ford. Why??

[Maastrictian]

Because its too deep/rocky/whatever, take your pick. I picture most fords being at least waist deep, too deep for even tanks. If you want a vehicle fordable river use marsh (which I *belive* vehicles can cross)

[Zipper]

Nope. My handy CMBO manual says marsh can't be entered by vehicles...

Zipper

[Agua]

My hand pbem butt-kicking agrees: Marsh can't be entered by vehicles.

[Pak40]

Hopefully for CM2 there will be 2 types of fords: infantry only fords and infantry + vehicle fords.

mountain or shallow streams usually have the low depth and firm bedding required for vehicles to cross where as canals and deeper streams(3 feet +) are fordable only by infantry because of soft bedding or deeper water.

In CMBO it is possible to simulate a ford for vehicles by making a break in the stream. You could even use bushes light trees to simulate the vehicle slowing down.

[JMcGuire]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Maastrictian:

I picture most fords being at least waist deep, too deep for even tanks.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I have two trucks, one a nearly-stock Durango on 31" tires, and the other a not-so-nearly-stock Ram 2500HD V10 on 33" tires, and they both can and have forded waist-deep streams. The Durango has done it on at least six occasions I can recall (three in, three out). One was roughly four car-lengths wide, so we aren't talking about rivers here, but still more than a backyard creek.

Addtionally, about five miles up the road is Camp Blanding, a small Reserve base that has all sorts of WWII-era equipment in a large outdoor display, and almost all of the trucks look very capable of fording waist-deep water (and I do have a good deal of off-roading experience backing up this opinion).

It certainly has no impact on the game, but I'd be surprised if waist-deep was too much for a tank, let alone some of the other vehicles of the era.

I'm certainly not saying I KNOW this opinion to be true, but I'd definitely be surprised.

[ashted]

Thanks to all for the replies, but if you have played "All or Nothing" you know there are only two ways to cross the river for vehicles and two unuseable fords. Real choke points when its raining and you can't get off the road.

[Vitalis]

I'm sorry, I just plain find this an unrealistic bug. If a person can cross the ford, a tank can cross the ford. Sure, the tank could stand a GREAT possibility of getting seriously stuck, but they CAN cross fords.

That is why they have a listed "Fording Depth" in thier manufactureres information.

Maybe a better solution would be to have different types of fords, like we have different types of terrain. Firm fords, soft fords, rocky fords. This would cover what areas are passable, and what areas aren't.

But a tank an/or truck SHOULD be able to cross some type of ford.

Vitalis

[Gyrene]

I agree with J.McGuire on this one, I seen military trucks, tanks and apc's crossing some pretty deep water, deeper than chest high, that's why air intakes and exhausts are waaaay up in the air. Maybe kubelwagens and jeeps and some others should be limited.

Does anyone remember film footage of tanks and trucks debarking from LST's onto a beach? Pretty deep water AND sand to boot.

Gyrene

[Olle Petersson]

Now we're in on deep waters, if you excuse the expression.

All German heavies (AFAIK) had some wading capabilities to cross rivers, since they were too heavy to use most bridges.

Doing that during combat, as in a CM battle, would be pretty much out of the question though.

IMO CM models this pretty accurate, since you're always allowed to cross the rivers between battles.

Cheers

Olle

[nedlam]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by ashted:

Thanks to all for the replies, but if you have played "All or Nothing" you know there are only two ways to cross the river for vehicles and two unuseable fords. Real choke points when its raining and you can't get off the road.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

That's the beauty of the scenario! It's a great one isn't it? I gave my friend fits as he tried to cross rail bridge. FYI he finally did it and booted me out of the town, so it's also possible.

Come to think of it he never did get a vehicle across. Well, one that survived long anyway.

[Pak40]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Olle Petersson:

Doing that during combat, as in a CM battle, would be pretty much out of the question though.

IMO CM models this pretty accurate, since you're always allowed to cross the rivers between battles. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I disagree in part because of a couple of reasons:

1) When life is on the line in the heat of a battle and a stream looks like it may be crossable in a certain are, chances are one of the tanks or vehicles is going to try to cross it. "Major, I'm afraid that my tank will get stuck" wont cut it when you're on a timed attack and the infantry is relying on your tank support.

2) Most fords are designed by humans for the exact purpose of vehicles to cross water. So why not let vehicles cross them during battle?

[Determinant]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Pak40:

1) When life is on the line in the heat of a battle and a stream looks like it may be crossable in a certain are, chances are one of the tanks or vehicles is going to try to cross it. "Major, I'm afraid that my tank will get stuck" wont cut it when you're on a timed attack and the infantry is relying on your tank support.

I suspect few commanders in action would want to risk crossing a water obstacle on a ford that had not been recced.

There is enough uncertainty in what the Enemy will do without having to worry about whether or not you're going to have a vehicle get stuck under fire.

Beside the getting stuck problem fords are an ideal place to lay antitank mines - they are invisible under the water and don't need digging in.

Fords scary - like all water obstacles best avoided if at all possible...

2) Most fords are designed by humans for the exact purpose of vehicles to cross water. So why not let vehicles cross them during battle?[/QB]<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Fords aren't designed by humans - they are designed by the river - with all the uncertainty that that entails.

[JMcGuire]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Olle Petersson:

Doing that during combat, as in a CM battle, would be pretty much out of the question though.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Wasn't much combat in "All or Nothing" around the fording area, actually.

In fact, the hardest part was getting your vehicles across the train bridge with the crappy "run over the guy in front of you" driving style. Oh, if we only had a convoy/follow command... (I know, I know...)

Right, stay on topic, back to fording: If you're ever in North Florida, look me up. We'll go float the Durango.

[Pak40]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Determinant:

Fords aren't designed by humans - they are designed by the river - with all the uncertainty that that entails.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Well obviously there are shallow parts of streams and rivers that happen naturally and some are turned into fords for crossing purposes. These shallow areas are further modified by man to make it easier for crossing. The river can be make wider and shallower which allows pedestrians and vehicles to cross much easier. It's not just by chance that roads are laid out to cross rivers at fords. I've seen fords where they've laid concete on the bed of the stream for better traction. I'd be willing to bet that most road fords are altered by man in some way to aid in crossing.

Let me make another point:

If my 4 door sedan can cross a 75 foot stream at a ford with rushing water appoximately 1 foot deep in about 1 minute, then any vehicle in CM can do the same. I agree that it's possible for some of the heavy vehicles to get stuck, depending on the stream bed, but it's still very possible for all vehicles.

[Hensworth]

Most rivers in Western Europe (remember your CM opening sequence) have rather steep banks because they run through soft top soil. This more than anything else will prevent the crossing of vehicles because they simply tip in and bury their nose in the mud.

Ground clearance or tracks won't help you.

[Skorpion]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Sgt_Kelly:

Most rivers in Western Europe (remember your CM opening sequence) have rather steep banks because they run through soft top soil. This more than anything else will prevent the crossing of vehicles because they simply tip in and bury their nose in the mud.

Ground clearance or tracks won't help you.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

umm, we're talking about FORDS here, not just crossing wherever you think the water is shallow.

I live in England and there are many fords, some dating back to medieval times. For those who don't seem to understand, a ford is a section of river where the bank has been dug out to provide a smooth entry to the water, and the river bed is generally reinforced with pebbles to provide a good grip.

To my mind there seems to be nothing that would stop a tank crossing ones of these fords, especially as I frequently do it in a car!

[Determinant]

I live in England and there are many fords, some dating back to medieval times. For those who don't seem to understand, a ford is a section of river where the bank has been dug out to provide a smooth entry to the water, and the river bed is generally reinforced with pebbles to provide a good grip.

To my mind there seems to be nothing that would stop a tank crossing ones of these fords, especially as I frequently do it in a car![/QB]

[Skorpion]

Mines in the ford - now there's an idea!

I wonder if they would still work underwater?

[Lorak]

Speaking of Fords I thought I would throw out a little information.

In one of the Tank books I have it list Fording as one of the Specs.

In WWII it looks like the majority of tanks had a fording of about 1 meter or less (around 3.25 feet).Some even down around .7 meters(2.5 feet) or less.

Some exceptions are:

German:

Jagdpanther: 1.7 meters (5.57 feet)

Panther: 1.7 meters (5.57 feet)

Tiger: 1.56 meters (5.1 feet)

Tiger II: 1.63 meters (5.24 feet)

British:

Centurion: 1.45 meters (4.75 feet)

Comet: 1.21 meters (4 feet)

Cromwell: 1.21 meters (4 feet)

Challenger: 1.21 meters (4 feet)

American:

M26 Pershing: 1.21 meters (4 feet)

Russian:

BT7: 1.56 meters (5.1 feet)

T-34/76: 1.37 meters (4.5 feet)

T-34/85: 1.3 meters (4.28 feet)

All the rest (after a quick search) fall into the 3 feet or under.

Maybe some of you guys in Europe who are around some Fords can put the fording dephts listed to some use.

Lorak

[Determinant]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Skorpion:

Mines in the ford - now there's an idea!

I wonder if they would still work underwater?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yup they sure do. Most mines are pretty waterproof for the simple reason that ground (particularly in Europe) can be very damp.

(Swings lantern, pulls up a sandbag) When I was monitoring the Russians keeping the peace in Georgia/Abkhazia the favoured tactic amongst the local terrorists was to place antitank mines in fords or large puddles - no need to dig and instant concealment.

Obviously mines aren't _that_ waterproof: you wouldn't want to store them under water, but they'll be fine in the water for a week or two - long enough to do some nastiness anyway...

[Eric Alkema]

So the answer is, regardless of whether or not whatever it is that you think of a ford is negotiable by vehicles during combat, if a scenario designer wanted to make a shallow spot in a river/creek/whatever that WAS navigable in combat, he would be out of luck. The only alternative would be to perhaps place a brush tile. If you want to make a small stream that is crossable anywhere, you are out of luck. Hardly and earthshatering shortcoming but I guess that when you can do almost anything you want, one complains about the last little bit.

[scaclark]

Hey, Determinant, when were you with UNOMIG?

[Abteilung]

What about the crossing of the bug river during the war on the ostfornt. Some of those tauchpanzers that were originally prepared for operation seelowe were used. Will they be in CM2 along with the already mentioned adjustments to the implementation of river fords?