Oddball_E8 Posted November 9, 2002 Share Posted November 9, 2002 Someone posted something about the german t-34 being better than the russian one in the game a while ago and he got the response that it was probarbly due to the difference command delays (russians in the early war count as being one exp. grade less ie. regulars have command delays as greens) but i decided to check up on this a little and it turns out that all the german t-34s have way better penetration values at longer ranges... now this could be explained by germans using better ammo, but didn´t the germans use captured ammo too? I cant imagine that the germans devoted much of their already over-strained industry to make ammunition for captured guns, although it migth be so... but that is not the end of the differances... i checked out the captured t-34 ´42 versus the russian t-34 ´42 and they have different armor values and slopes!!! now surely this cant be right???? right??? ok so im not a grog but i am interested in WWII and have read alot about the eastern front an i have never heard of the germans modifying any captured t-34 by changing the armor values and slopes... yes, yes i know they made AA-guns and all that, but i meant just changing the original a little... oh... and one more thing... the armor quality is different... did the germans only capture the tanks with low quality? :confused: :confused: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Monty Posted November 9, 2002 Share Posted November 9, 2002 Very ODD yes........ Seems like a bug to me. Monty aka Moose Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oddball_E8 Posted November 9, 2002 Author Share Posted November 9, 2002 now what was it I wanted to say... hmmm... oh yeah thats right!!! BUMP!!!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Le Tondu Posted November 9, 2002 Share Posted November 9, 2002 I'm that other guy and I just did a test using captured Panther VA early war tanks and the captured tanks also have different armor thicknesses. Specificaly, it's the upper and lower hull thicknesses for June 1944. German Panther VA (early war) Upper Hull: 83/55 Degrees Lower Hull: 63/55 degrees Captured German Panther VA (early war) Upper Hull: 80/55 Degrees Lower Hull: 60/55 degrees Even the penetration values for the ammo are different. Somefink aint right. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sgt. Steiner Posted November 9, 2002 Share Posted November 9, 2002 I don't know about the captured German vehicles the Russians used, but the captured T-34's in German service had the barrels re-bored in order to use standard German 75mm. This was done in order to standardize ammo with other German vehicles. In fact, the Germans had at least one facility set up to do nothing but refurbish captured T-34's.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PiggDogg Posted November 9, 2002 Share Posted November 9, 2002 I'm that other guy and I just did a test using captured Panther VA early war tanks and the captured tanks also have different armor thicknesses. Specificaly, it's the upper and lower hull thicknesses for June 1944. German Panther VA (early war) Upper Hull: 83/55 Degrees Lower Hull: 63/55 degrees Captured German Panther VA (early war) Upper Hull: 80/55 Degrees Lower Hull: 60/55 degrees Even the penetration values for the ammo are different. It must be all those tens of thousand of Sons Of Old Mother Russia cannon fodder guys who have nothing much to do after close order drill. Their NKVD commissars order them to polish up those caputred Panthers' armor with sandpaper and emerycloth. This causes a nice bright sheen on the armor. However, it causes thinner armor. Cheers, Richard [ November 09, 2002, 01:48 PM: Message edited by: PiggDogg ] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Silvio Manuel Posted November 9, 2002 Share Posted November 9, 2002 I'll bet that these errors in the unit info screen are just that... the AFV "platform" is probably same for the CM computation engine regardless of which flag it's flying. OTOH, wasn't that not the case for the M17 quad .50cal...the max range was listed at 250m instead of 2500m in the info screen, but in reality it would only shoot out to 250m, making it useless in it's AA role? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andrew H. Posted November 9, 2002 Share Posted November 9, 2002 Originally posted by Sgt. Steiner: I don't know about the captured German vehicles the Russians used, but the captured T-34's in German service had the barrels re-bored in order to use standard German 75mm. This was done in order to standardize ammo with other German vehicles. In fact, the Germans had at least one facility set up to do nothing but refurbish captured T-34's..How could they rebore it to 75mm if it's already larger than 75mm? I know that the Germans produced their own ammo for captured 76.2mm AT guns; the german produced ammo was better than the Sov. 76.2mm gun but not as good as the 75mm L/48. Maybe they used this ammo for their captured T-34s. I don't understand why the armor should be different, though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sgt. Steiner Posted November 9, 2002 Share Posted November 9, 2002 I got that from an east front book, one of the Squadron/Signal titles, as I remember. The book says re-bored, perhaps the author meant re-barrelled? Unless possibly they did rebore them, and then put in a barrel insert. OK Ostfront grogs, anything in your piles of dusty tomes concerning this? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Le Tondu Posted November 10, 2002 Share Posted November 10, 2002 ---June 1943, Pz IIIJ captured and not captured have discrepancies too on the Unit Information windows. My feeling that they are typos and not representative of what is under the hood. (At least I hope not.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thermopylae Posted November 10, 2002 Share Posted November 10, 2002 Well, a few holes in the armro could probably affect its values.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Madmatt Posted November 10, 2002 Share Posted November 10, 2002 I will have Charles take a look at these. Madmatt Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oddball_E8 Posted November 10, 2002 Author Share Posted November 10, 2002 thats all we can ask... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gunnergoz Posted November 10, 2002 Share Posted November 10, 2002 Originally posted by Madmatt: I will have Charles take a look at these. MadmattMatt, you have to get an appropriate sound effect to play when you do these interventions...lightning effects, thunder, deeeeep voice from a cave kind of thing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bullethead Posted November 10, 2002 Share Posted November 10, 2002 Originally posted by gunnergoz: </font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Madmatt: I will have Charles take a look at these. MadmattMatt, you have to get an appropriate sound effect to play when you do these interventions...lightning effects, thunder, deeeeep voice from a cave kind of thing. </font> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Redwolf Posted November 10, 2002 Share Posted November 10, 2002 Originally posted by Le Tondu: ---June 1943, Pz IIIJ captured and not captured have discrepancies too on the Unit Information windows. My feeling that they are typos and not representative of what is under the hood. (At least I hope not.) I would be surprived if the display wasn't straight out of the engine mechanics. What you see is most certainly what you get. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
M Hofbauer Posted November 10, 2002 Share Posted November 10, 2002 Originally posted by Andrew Hedges: How could they rebore it to 75mm if it's already larger than 75mm?think not only projectile diameter, but cartridge length and the respective chamber dimensions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMC Posted November 10, 2002 Share Posted November 10, 2002 I can't say whether the German did anything to the gun on the T-34, but they did play with the field guns. Perhaps the ammunition between the F-34 76.2mm gun on the T-34 was interchangeable with that of their field guns? The F-34 was 42 calibers in length as compared to the 51 calibers (also seen as 51.5 calibers in some sources). According to the Encyclopedia of German Tanks, The Germans produced both pzgr 39 and pzgr 40 for the 7.62mm PAK 36®. wt.(kg) Vo pen at 100m pzgr39 7.60 720 98 pzgr40 4.15 960 135 the pzgr40 is just a little better than the comparable ammo for the 75mm KWK 40 L/43 while the pzgr39 seems nearly the same except for a heavier cartridge: wt.(kg) Vo pen at 100m pzgr39 6.80 740 98 pzgr40 4.10 920 126 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andreas Posted November 10, 2002 Share Posted November 10, 2002 The Germans also manufactured ammunition for captured Soviet 122mm divisional guns. Quite a few Wehrmacht units were equipped with that one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Swift Posted November 11, 2002 Share Posted November 11, 2002 Achtung Panzer ! says : Modifications included installation of commander's cupola (from damaged Panzerkampfwagen III and IV tanks), Schuerzen (armor skirts) and other equipment such as Notek light, storage boxes, tools, radio equipment and antenna. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sgt. Steiner Posted November 11, 2002 Share Posted November 11, 2002 Any photos of these German T-34's w/cupolas, etc? Would be neat to see. Some mods for them would be cool too.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TSword Posted November 11, 2002 Share Posted November 11, 2002 Sgt. Steiner, Right, after the recapture of Kharkov in Spring 1943, the Tankfactory there was used to "produce" german T-34, eg. Useable slight damaged T-34 were reworked to german standards. Have some pictures about it. However this ended after Kharkov was captured by the Russians once and for all in Aug. 1943. To my knowledge SS-PzGren. Totenkopf used this tanks in a special Company (14. ?) for the remaining 1943 (Kursk, Mius, Bogodhukov and the retreat to the Dnjepr river. Detachment Kempf also used atleast one captured T-34 to fool the Russians and take an important Rivercrossing in the Kursk-campaign around 12/13. July. Greets Daniel Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Redwolf Posted November 11, 2002 Share Posted November 11, 2002 Originally posted by Oddball_E8: oh... and one more thing... the armor quality is different... did the germans only capture the tanks with low quality? :confused: :confused: Corrosive paint? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rune Posted November 11, 2002 Share Posted November 11, 2002 If you missed it, it is listed under corrections for the patch. The armor is now the same. Thanks guys! Rune Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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