WWB Posted October 22, 2002 Share Posted October 22, 2002 I think the it is a perception thing. Troops tire just about as quickly as when advancing or running for the same amount of time. Only issue is that sneaking troops go pretty slow, so one has to sneak for five turns straight to make the same 40m advance. That said I am also beginning to wonder if the fatigue rate for sneaking troops should be toned down a little. One other thing I have started doing now. Say you have an MG which is taking fire from range as it crosses open ground. It goes to sneaking and is still taking fire. Well, I have now just started doing the logical thing in letting it setup and return fire. At 300m+ damage from anything aside from field artillery type weapons is minimal for troops not moving and it has been working pretty well. WWB Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ex Bellator Posted October 22, 2002 Author Share Posted October 22, 2002 Lots of good points, I wonder if the busy chaps at BFC can swing by this thread soon... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ex Bellator Posted October 23, 2002 Author Share Posted October 23, 2002 Any more comments please? Do we really want to see our pixel men exhausting themselves doing the Sneaking Samba until the rewrite? So far most people seem to think this warrants a looksey. I'm sure it's darn difficult to alter the program code but a few more days playing only convinces me more that it isn't working at the moment. [ October 23, 2002, 06:00 PM: Message edited by: Rex_Bellator ] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sgt. Beavis Posted October 24, 2002 Share Posted October 24, 2002 Originally posted by Switch_Back: I dont not have much problem with the infantry going to "sneak" when under fire, I have more of a problem when they are next to some viable cover so sometimes go in the opposite direction. An example of a recent problem I had was approaching a house in "advance" almost as soon as the platoon was about to reach the stone wall outside the house, a bloody MG42 opens fire and lets rip on them, so what do they do, NO they dont crawl behind the wall where its safe, insted they decide to crawl back into OPEN country can someone plzz sympathize lol I've noticed this too... The infantry units in the game will decide to cross 100 m of open ground instead of simply crawling forward a few meters to break LOS or get into the house/tree line/foxhole they were initially advancing towards. And I agree with those who think that "sneaking" exhausts troops too fast Especially a big problem with HMG or light mortar teams that take fire. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
-E Posted October 24, 2002 Share Posted October 24, 2002 Originally posted by Rex_Bellator: I think I would class myself as Unfit but hope that a 1 minute crawl wouldn't do me in for the next quarter of an hour. Heck I'll try it nowWell? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cassh Posted October 24, 2002 Share Posted October 24, 2002 If my memory serves me correctly the element of the advance to contact Battle Drill for "Reaction to effective enemy fire" was Dash, Down, Crawl, Sights, Observe, Fire. The "sights" was to ensure you set an estimated range to the contact - no point popping off rounds that go high or fall short. If you've ever crawled in fighting-order kit with a weapon for more than 30 yards/meters cross-country you'll realise that BTS have accurately modelled the fatigue. And you tend to zigzag a lot as you usually can see sweet FA. You often find your helmet brim on the ridge of your nose when you look up as the helmet's neck cover/protection is digs into your shoulders and wont go back any further. Therefore having panicking and broken sections/squads crawl round in circles seems a little lest unreasonable to me than to some of you. Crawling back into the kill zone/beaten area is something I think we all agree needs tweaking. The CMII engine will be splendid if infantry use dead-ground for cover (i.e. breaking LOS as mention in a post above) rather than hauling arse to "better cover" when they encounter a heavy contact. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Silvio Manuel Posted October 24, 2002 Share Posted October 24, 2002 Originally posted by wwb_99: I think the it is a perception thing. Troops tire just about as quickly as when advancing or running for the same amount of time. Only issue is that sneaking troops go pretty slow, so one has to sneak for five turns straight to make the same 40m advance. That said I am also beginning to wonder if the fatigue rate for sneaking troops should be toned down a little. One other thing I have started doing now. Say you have an MG which is taking fire from range as it crosses open ground. It goes to sneaking and is still taking fire. Well, I have now just started doing the logical thing in letting it setup and return fire. At 300m+ damage from anything aside from field artillery type weapons is minimal for troops not moving and it has been working pretty well. WWBBUMP and I agree w/ your comments. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grisha Posted October 24, 2002 Share Posted October 24, 2002 Soviet troops did a lot of crawling in WWII. Approaches to their advance line were to be unobserved, so if that's what it took to remain unobserved, then they crawled. They would crawl when making for the assault line during advance if terrain and intensity of enemy fire warranted/required it. They also were trained that if hit by artillery they were to 'creep' toward the front of the barrage. Granted, rushing in bounds was much preferred, but you did what was necessary to remain in one piece and reach your lines/objectives. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xerxes Posted October 24, 2002 Share Posted October 24, 2002 I have a feeling that the TacAI doesn't really have a clue how to use terrain to break LOS. Just don't ever get caught in the open. But more seriously, you can generally avoid your support weapons getting caught in the open, unless your opponent is truely evil. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ex Bellator Posted October 24, 2002 Author Share Posted October 24, 2002 Originally posted by -E: </font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Rex_Bellator: I think I would class myself as Unfit but hope that a 1 minute crawl wouldn't do me in for the next quarter of an hour. Heck I'll try it nowWell?</font> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1stCav Posted October 24, 2002 Share Posted October 24, 2002 I was in the army and let me assure you that low crawling is very, very tiring. I think the longest distance I ever covered was about 50 meters or so and I was exhausted. For any of you who haven't done it, imagine laying your entire body flat on the ground with your arms and legs spread out. Your kevlar is pressed into the dirt with your head facing sideways and you have to slide your entire weight along by pushing with one foot and one arm at a time. It is extremely difficult even for a fit, well fed, well rested soldier. I can only imagine how tiring it would be for an unfed, unrested Russian or German soldier during WWII. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nidan1 Posted October 24, 2002 Share Posted October 24, 2002 Originally posted by 1stCav: I was in the army and let me assure you that low crawling is very, very tiring. I think the longest distance I ever covered was about 50 meters or so and I was exhausted. For any of you who haven't done it, imagine laying your entire body flat on the ground with your arms and legs spread out. Your kevlar is pressed into the dirt with your head facing sideways and you have to slide your entire weight along by pushing with one foot and one arm at a time. It is extremely difficult even for a fit, well fed, well rested soldier. I can only imagine how tiring it would be for an unfed, unrested Russian or German soldier during WWII.The above is very enlightening....now imagine all of the above happening while someone is trying to shoot you dead, mortar rounds are impacting around you, and you have no idea where any of this danger is coming from... in Vietnam we called it the "Pucker Factor" (I will leave the definition up to your imagination) The higher the "Pucker Factor" the less likely individuals or fireteams would be in a mood to return fire. Until direction of incoming fire and places to hide from that fire are determined, even well trained personnel will not function for some period of time. I guess the answer is, don't get ambushed!!! [ October 24, 2002, 10:13 AM: Message edited by: Nidan1 ] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TSword Posted October 24, 2002 Share Posted October 24, 2002 1stCav, You're right, although we had no kevlar wests it was extremely nasty crawling almost the whole day on frozen ground i can tell you....., didn't believe my eyes when i saw my elbows and knees the next day all colours of the rainbow.. Greets Daniel Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John D Salt Posted October 25, 2002 Share Posted October 25, 2002 Originally posted by 1stCav: I was in the army and let me assure you that low crawling is very, very tiring. I think the longest distance I ever covered was about 50 meters or so and I was exhausted. You should try it the way the Royal Marines do it in "mud runs" at Lympstone -- through the thick, clinging, stinking alluvial mud of the Exe estuary. They do press-ups and sit-ups, too, to make sure you get a good coating of foul-smelling gunge all over. Having said that, I understand that the CM:BB "Sneak" combines the old CM:BO "Sneak" and "Crawl" modes of movement. It seems to me, therefore, that, especially in covering terrain, the troops may be using other methods of movement than just the leopard crawl (as we call "low crawl" this side of the water). All the best, John. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JonS Posted October 25, 2002 Share Posted October 25, 2002 wwb_99, cassh, 1stCav, Nidan1, et al I know that leopard crawling is exhausting. I don't have a problem with the part of the model that says "crawling troops get shagged real fast." I do have a problem with the part of the model that says "troops under fire drop and crawl to the nearest cover regardless of how far that is." The Dash, Down, Crawl, Sights, Observe, Fire mantra covers the first two or three metres of the current CMBB model, but after that? Regards JonS Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
General Tacticus Posted October 25, 2002 Share Posted October 25, 2002 So....how would "if there is some cover close by ( =< 20m) then crawl, else stay put" sound to grogs, gamers and servicemen alike ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frunze Posted October 25, 2002 Share Posted October 25, 2002 Seems to me that Tacticus' suggestion would be better, even for the self-preservation of the troops. (Which is supposed to be the basis of TacAI decisions.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Dorosh Posted October 25, 2002 Share Posted October 25, 2002 Originally posted by John D Salt: than just the leopard crawl (as we call "low crawl" this side of the water). All the best, John.I was introduced to the joys of the "leopard crawl" on this side of the pond during my basic training as well. We even called it that, but don't ask me for the French translation, though I'm sure the only reason our Army would still call it that is because it does translate.... That's why the CF-18 is not called a "Hornet" as it's American version is called - the French word for hornet apparently translated directly as "useless drone".... [ October 24, 2002, 10:07 PM: Message edited by: Michael Dorosh ] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Panzer76 Posted October 25, 2002 Share Posted October 25, 2002 And they dont only crawl using this command, it's a combined sneak & crwal command, is it not? I cant see how the sneaking can exhaust troops after 20 m... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
General Tacticus Posted October 25, 2002 Share Posted October 25, 2002 Originally posted by Panzer76: And they dont only crawl using this command, it's a combined sneak & crwal command, is it not? I cant see how the sneaking can exhaust troops after 20 m...Hows this for an explanation.... The old CMBO "sneak" now comes in to different flavours...Sneak Lite AKA Move to contact, and Soopa Doopa "You'll never see me 'cos I'm so sneaky" Sneak AKA Sneak/Crawl. If you want to be stealthy through light cover, you may have to keep your butt in the mud [ October 24, 2002, 11:06 PM: Message edited by: General Tacticus ] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Emrys Posted October 25, 2002 Share Posted October 25, 2002 Originally posted by General Tacticus: Hows this for an explanation.... The old CMBO "sneak" now comes in to different flavours...Sneak Lite AKA Move to contact, and Soopa Doopa "You'll never see me 'cos I'm so sneaky" Sneak AKA Sneak/Crawl. If you want to be stealthy through light cover, you may have to keep your butt in the mud I think that pretty well covers it. In which case, the present "Sneak" command strikes me as misnamed. Michael Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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