Does the stealth bonus really do anything?

[Agua]

Originally posted by tecumseh:

If this is true, it is NOT in the manual. I am going to test this for myself tonight

It's not? I thought it stated somewhere in there that the stealth bonus increases the ability of the unit affected to avoid detection. Maybe not. The only other effect of "stealth" on a moving unit (that I'm aware of) is that it will stop when fired upon.

I wish I could find that other thread I referred to earlier because, although still stated in general terms, it had more detail as to the effects of differing terrain between "sneak" and "move". However, I've searched using my member number and it has literally disappeared.

[tecumseh]

Originally posted by Agua:

It's not? I thought it stated somewhere in there that the stealth bonus increases the ability of the unit affected to avoid detection.

I think all the stuff in the manual regarding the stealth bonus is quoted earlier in the thread. I have Manual 1.2.

Anyway I tried a few Agua-type tests and - bizarre - I got a different result. I could find no effect on having the stealth bonus when walking and/or running through woods and/or scattered trees. :confused:

However I did see that sneaking infantry are harder to spot with a stealth bonus. This came through very clearly in woods. But not in scattered trees (which is my my original sneak test in post 1 failed to pick it up).

So - in my opinion - the manual is right.

- stealth helps infantry stay targeted to an ambush marker, they are less likely to be distracted.

- Hiding units are hard to spot anyway, but a stealth bonus probably makes them even harder to spot.

- Units sneaking in heavy cover and at night are hard to spot anyway, but a stealth bonus makes them even harder to spot.

In my opinion the stealth bonus has no effect on kneeling, firing, walking, and running units. It does not assist a unit TO SPOT either.

As jason says, "for what it's worth"

[Michael Emrys]

Told ya so.

But seriously, if anyone wants to continue testing this out it would probably be a good idea because random effects can make such a difference in CM. Just a single run through usually doesn't usually prove much.

Michael

[Silvio Manuel]

Vet. units and/or units w/ Stealth bonus can sneak thru wheatfields, I love that. Esp. in reduced visibility conditions.

[Agua]

Okay. I'm seeing a different result here. Tried it again and got the same result. If anyone wants this extremely simple test setup, I'll e-mail it to you.

[KEEF888]

From the few tests I've run concerning this, it seems as if the "stealth bonus" applies itself better when the unit in question is crawling/sneaking, as opposed to moving/running, regardless of the surrounding concealment terrain - which, in reality, makes quite a bit of sense. Be it the difference in physical stature or the difference in noise level, keeping a unit concealed is much easier when it is hugging the ground and taking it's time advancing, as opposed to exposing itself and rushing towards it's objective. See ya!

[KEEF888]

Ooops..one thing I forgot to mention in my last post, is that I found no benefit in the ability to spot the enemy when under stealth ability. However, it of course, according to the manual, "increases the chace of remaining unspotted in ambush and while sneaking". Thanks.

[flamingknives]

HQs and units under command with stealth bonuses can see further through intervening terrain/low vis. atmospherics

There you go. One observation, 2 pence worth.

[tecumseh]

Originally posted by flamingknives:

HQs and units under command with stealth bonuses can see further through intervening terrain/low vis. atmospherics

There you go. One observation, 2 pence worth.

I'm pretty sure this is wrong. Stealth bonuses have no effect on a unit's ability to see or spot. How did you work this out FK?

[flamingknives]

I'm pretty sure this is wrong. Stealth bonuses have no effect on a unit's ability to see or spot. How did you work this out FK?

Errr... that wasn't me, it was my evil twin who misremembers things.

Honestly!?

What I really meant to say was that it increases the distance that an HQ unit, or unit under it's command, can set ambushes. (I was playing a defensive battle and setting ambush markers)

[Chad Harrison]

If you ever think that the stealth bonus is not important, just try to advance on a full strength platoon with double stealth bonus in the woods. All the sudden, all your men will fall down under fire and you wont see whos shooting for awhile (length of time determined by about 100 variables). Those precious seconds are beyond value to the defending platoon.

Beter yet, set up a anti tank gun in tall pines, foxhole, under double stealth bonus. Engage tanks at 500m+ and see how long it takes them to spot you (as long as there isnt a hundred of them looking!).

Double stealth and heart are always what I put my anti tank guns under when availible.

Chad Harrison

[xerxes]

I find when I DON'T have a stealth bonus my AT teams open up too early even though they're hidden. It's not that they're getting spotted, they just decide to unhide and fire at 95m with a 17% hit chance (or something like that). I just lost a chance for a point blank 3 zook ambush because the trigger happy grunts sprang the trap 15 seconds too early. All I managed to get was a kill on an already immobilized HT.

I think Chad has a really good point, getting an extra round of shots in before a defending squad is IDed makes all the difference in the world.

[Chad Harrison]

Originally posted by xerxes:

. . .getting an extra round of shots in before a defending squad is IDed makes all the difference in the world.

Some things are best learned when used on you. I learned that leason the hard way. It works though. When I do a QB, I line up all my platoons in a straight line so all the Platoon HQ's are in a line. I click down the line and separate the platoons into different task *areas* based on the platoon bonus'. Double stealth with double combat or heart make a formidable opponent. I once had a double heart and stealth American '44 rifle platoon hold off and route two veteran Sturmgruppe platoons at the same time. Why? Because by the time they spotted me to shoot at my troops, they had already lost too many men to be effective at close range.

Chad Harrison

[PiggDogg]

Chad & Guys,

I had not realized that the "?", especially "double ?" had such a useful effect. I'll pay attention to it more.

However, considering the short life of most AT guns (they seldomly live through a few shots, much less a battle if they fire), single and double bolts help those AT guns & inf AT teams hit before those ATs buy the farm. :eek:

If I have a choice, I would think that the combat bonus might be more useful for AT guns & inf AT teams than stealth. However, I can be convinced otherwise with good logic & examples.

Cheers, Richard

[walpurgis nacht]

When using AT guns of ANY experience level, I often "stick" them to an ambush marker directly BEHIND themselves so that they cannot fire unless directed to do so (under almost all circumstances, there are of course exceptions). This way, you might happen to miss an opportunity for a flank shot on that one nasty heavy tank that you really need to kill, but you will never fire a "weak" (17% hit chance, no kill) shot, exposing the highly vulnerable, ever precious guns. If they were placed properly to begin with (yes, the terrain can be impossible sometimes), you should eventually leave your opponent no choice but to expose his flank. Guard the guns with infantry, at least 40 meters in front of the gun, set to ambush. This way, no infantry can sneak up on that “locked” AT gun and kill it without triggering the infantry ambush. Keep that AT gun hidden! To kill that infantry as an attacker, your opponent needs superior force to win. If the infantry are well placed, that very well may mean the support of armor or other valuable support vehicles (this does not account for the wrath of god---artillery). So, set up a grand style ambush. Place the AT guns and infantry so that when support is brought in, the AT guns will have that killer flank shot from the other side of the board, if not a nice shot from the gun you are protecting. Check all LOS possibilities. I'm always surprised how quickly people setup with these IP games. You can really spend a hell of a long time checking all the angles and really designing a solid crossfire!

And Chad is right about that stealth bonus. Try his favorite as the Axis and get some Fusilier SMGs (for that killer 40 meter punch) and a great stealth bonus for an ambush in the woods . . . but at the BACK of the woods (so the opponent thinks it is all clear by the time his troops reach it). Surprise! You're dead. Nothing can touch these guys at 40 meters.

[Chad Harrison]

Originally posted by PiggDogg:

Chad & Guys,

I had not realized that the "?", especially "double ?" had such a useful effect. I'll pay attention to it more.

However, considering the short life of most AT guns (they seldomly live through a few shots, much less a battle if they fire), single and double bolts help those AT guns & inf AT teams hit before those ATs buy the farm. :eek:

If I have a choice, I would think that the combat bonus might be more useful for AT guns & inf AT teams than stealth. However, I can be convinced otherwise with good logic & examples.

Cheers, Richard

Glad I could help!

Combat or Stealth bonus for AT guns? Definatly stealth. Lets say you have an two AT guns that fire at three tanks with some infantry. One has a double Combat bonus, the other double stealth. On the first shot, the combat bonus gun hits dead on and knocks out the tank! But, it is spotted and dispatched quickly. The stealth tank fires, misses, fires again, knocks out the second tank, fires again at the third and misses, and now it is spotted. And trust me, this happens all the time, ESPECIALLY at longer ranges.

Most important of all PiggDogg is to try it out yourself. Make a battle with AT guns only against tanks and try out the different bonus'.

Hope this helped!

Chad Harrison

[Chad Harrison]

Originally posted by Walpurgis Night:

And Chad is right about that stealth bonus. Try his favorite as the Axis and get some Fusilier SMGs (for that killer 40 meter punch) and a great stealth bonus for an ambush in the woods . . . but at the BACK of the woods (so the opponent thinks it is all clear by the time his troops reach it). Surprise! You're dead. Nothing can touch these guys at 40 meters.

Very true jesse Speaking of that game, we need to finish it. I emailed you, drop me a line and we can set up a time (not tonight, I got to get to bed!) for tomorrow sometime or somefink.

Hey, but I got you pretty good on the game before that one!

[tecumseh]

I think there is a psychological effect where players project powers onto the stealth bonus that aren't there. Even good players who have a lot of experience.

It takes a certain amount of time to spot a unit that is firing at you, and this time depends on a huge number of variables - including a random number - but I am convinced it is in NO WAY influenced by the firing unit being under an HQ with a stealth bonus.

It is quite easy to test, using the scenario editor and hotseat. You guys should try it.

[Holien]

Hi,

It has been pointed out to me in another thread that AT guns do not benefit from Combat Bonus.

The only units that do are Infantry on Infantry fights.

I used to attach HQ's with Combat bonus to AT guns and will never do so again as it is a waste.

H

[tecumseh]

Originally posted by Holien:

It has been pointed out to me in another thread that AT guns do not benefit from Combat Bonus.

That's right. Well, it doesn't increase the % hit chance displayed on the screen anyway. Veteran guns display a higher hit % than regular ones, and I'd imagine if the combat bonus DID help the gun hit its target, this increase in hit % would be displayed too. But it is not.

The combat bonus increases the FP of infantry and MGs

[flamingknives]

The combat bonus increases the FP of infantry and MGs

But this isn't shown on the FP displayed either.

[Holien]

Hmmm,

Next time you are in combat when using the targetting tool for Inf with a leader with a combat bonus, do some checking..

I think you will see a difference.

If you put a plus two Combat bonus with an SMG platoon you will certainly be pleased with what the targeting tool will show.

Add vet or crack troops and it gets even better.

H

[Redwolf]

Combat HQ also increase the precision of mortars.

That is what the 3" antitank mortars are made of, and the 2" anti-Wespe mortars.

[Holien]

Hi Redwolf,

I do not believe that Combat Bonus increases chance to hit with mortars.

Have you any evidence for this?

I have none to disprove the statement but I have seen none to prove it either...

H

[Redwolf]

Originally posted by Holien:

I do not believe that Combat Bonus increases chance to hit with mortars.

Have you any evidence for this?

Oh yes, I tested it quite throroughly, it was my great time without work but more pay

Anyway, just set up a bunch of Pz IV in front of woods, a bunch of 3" mortars inside the woods and then give half of the mortars HQs without combat bonus and the other half 2+ combat bonus. The ones with combat bonus will reliably hit a standing Panzer within one turn,the others can shoot half their ammo before scoring a hit.

Now, it might be the case that the bonus does not apply when the mortar has LOS, I only tested for targetting through the HQ.

All this is another reason why I became a little CMBO-annoyed.