How do you handle SET UP

[Louie the Toad]

When faced with a large number of units stretching from one end of the map to the other and more, what organizational thoughts and techniques do you use to make sense of it all and make the most of your force?

Curious Toad

[Conscript Bagger]

I always start by organizing the infantry into platoons and companies, setting the heavy weapons and spotters aside. Once I decide which infantry is going where, then I dole out the support (including vehicles) based on where it'll be needed.

[Louie the Toad]

Me too. I wonder if there is another way of approaching it.

Toad

[109 Gustav]

When on defense, I first set up an antitank network of guns and zooks/shrecks if Amis or Germans. Then I place my infantry platoons, which include PIATs and 2 inch uberdeathrays if Brits. Then come the other supporting weapons, arty spotters, and finally the tanks.

On the attack, I set up the inf first, then armor, and finally the support weapons, which inculdes PAITs and mortars (I seperate them from the platoons when attacking with Tommies).

[E Wendebourg]

I rarely have time to play CM, and if I do I find the deployment phase as somewhat tedious. So I really hope there will be an option for automatic deployment of your force in CMBB. If one then could make some corrections after the initial deployment, that is how I would deploy my force most of the time.

[edgars]

I think setup is most important part of the game. It is actually game in the game. And people not willing to spend time in setup are loosing one great aspect of the game - planning: you try to guess where the enemy will go, and what you'll do, if he goes there or there...

When i do my setups, i always start looking at the map from opponents perspective: where HE will put his AT gun, or where he'll aproach with his infantry. Only then i deploy my own forces according to the assumptions i've made.

[ March 26, 2002, 07:23 AM: Message edited by: ciks ]

[Ozzy]

Originally posted by E Wendebourg:

I rarely have time to play CM, and if I do I find the deployment phase as somewhat tedious. So I really hope there will be an option for automatic deployment of your force in CMBB. If one then could make some corrections after the initial deployment, that is how I would deploy my force most of the time.

Sorry, but then you are in the wrong game. I would tend to say at least 80% of the CM battle outcome is directly related to your setup. The Setup is the base of every military operation, whether IRL or in CM.

My personal setup procedure is as follows:

1) Placing all Platoons together.

2) Creating HQ (Coy, Bn.), FO and heavy weapons pools

3) Placing AFVs and other fighting vehicles as platoons

4) (and most important): terrain "recon", i.e. identifying possible paths of advance, defensive lines, support by fire positions, hull down positions, coverage, LOS, "keyholes", etc., BOTH for friendly and enemy units

5) Create a plan, ideally having several options for every detail, thus creating dynamic offense/defense

6) decide which unit (i.e. type, composition, strength, experience, equipment and support, HQ skills) would be appropriate for each detail of my plan

7) searching among my disposals for such appropriate units (e.g. for flanking scout units max. one platoon with an HQ having good command and stealth skills)

8) placing the units in the appropriate starting positions

9) making a final review. for this purpose I switch to view 8, as this review is basically nothing else than the deployment of my units "depicted on a paper map"

All in all, I easily spend up to several hours for a setup, but it is worth it!

[Redwolf]

Setup is for weenies, just hit GO!

[Dirtweasle]

Originally posted by Ozzy:

All in all, I easily spend up to several hours for a setup, but it is worth it!

Yipes! Yes it can be "worth it" to ID every potential hiding spot, and nook and crant to find good firing lanes but does'nt it get a little silly after the first 30 minutes or so?

I limit myself to the time it takes to smoke 1 cigarette for battles of 1500 point aprox or less, 2 smokes for anything larger than 2000 and add a pint of beer for anything over 3000 points.

[Mr. Johnson--]

Dirtweasle, you are a true man. and I like your style. Restricting your set up time is probably more realistic, to represent the the fog of war or a commmander never having enough time to do everything he wants too. I'm the same way, I like a nice basic "plan with branchs", I pick my schwerepunkt then go to deploying to achive my objectives. Of course the terrain is the most important factor when planning your attack or defense.

[E Wendebourg]

Ozzy,

for the first I don't have several hours to spend on force setup. Either I hasten my setup, or I don't play the game at all. For the second, my point was just that the computer should be able to do steps 1, 2, 3 and 8 for me. And then I as the player should be able to make some adjustements according to step 9 if necessary. If one doesn't like the computer generated deployment at all, one should be able to just make another automatic deploy, until one is satisfied.

PS If I had time I probably would spend some more thought on setup, but never several hours. I like to improvise from a situation that has been given to me.

[Ex Bellator]

Do'h! Purchase & setup is easy - you buy all the Jagdtigers and put them on the top of the hill.

Do we really need a thread for something so obvious?

[ March 26, 2002, 12:45 PM: Message edited by: Rex_Bellator ]

[flamingknives]

I organise into units (usually companies) then attach support to each Company HQ (AT, spotters, medium mortars, MGs)

In defence, I identify likely avenues of attack, and place as many platoons as I can spare/fit in cover/need, then add support from the company 'pool'

I attack, I identify the most obvious route of attack (covered approach) and pick the second most obvious, using a platoon or so on the other flank as a distraction.

I try to keep support at platoon levels, i.e. British have PIAT and 2" each, US has 1MG and a 'zook for each platoon. 60mm's usually stay back with the support platoon leader.

If I have armour, I'll tend to group them into platoons of 3-5. If I'm playing allied, I'll mix the shermans/cromwells with Fireflies/other TDs

[Croda]

The setup for me is at least half the fun.

I also start out with terrain analysis.

On attack:

1 - What are my VLs?

2 - Where will he most likely defend these VLs and with what? (keep in mind the opponent's preferences and the force type chosen at setup)

3 - How can I get there?

Re 1: The VLs are so arbitrary, that sometimes they are entirely undefendable. If given a cluster of VLs and 1 off by itself on the flank, I will often concede it as it is not worth more than a platoon to defend, and that platoon will most likely be massacred should he attack that way in strength. Keep that platoon where it can support the rest of the Company.

Re 2: Most people are very unimaginative in their defense. If there is a clump of trees at the base of the VL, drop a few rounds of 105 on it because chances are that's where he's hiding.

Look for good spots for him to set up. Thicker trees are naturally better. Buildings are great. Are the VLs covered by quality defensive positions? Is the VL on the reverse slope of a hill?

What is he using? Did the setup allow armor? Most people won't go into battle without armor if the setup allows it. It's often the first thing purchased. Figure out how you'd defend the position and then look for weaknesses.

During this process I decide which VLs are the least defensible and designate that point as the goal of my initial attack (meaning the objective I'd like to achieve before committing my entire force.

Re 3: Analyze the terrain to see how it benefits the attack. For example: If you are attacking against a position where the VLs are spread across the map, chances are the defender is defending the entire position. Look for a terrain feature that prevents him from bringing all of his fire to bear on your attack. Perhaps a forest, or a high ridge that separates his left from his right so there is no LOS. Remember that in an attack, you have a 1.5:1 advantage in points. If the terrain is such that his left cannot support his right, then you can assume a 3:1 advantage on a particular side.

Take a look at the terrain from the top down view to see what approaches are available to your armor. The approaches should be wide enough to move the armor through while being able to secure your flanks from ambush with your infantry.

I spend a lot of time running around in 1st person view to see what my approach will look like. Where are the good covered avenues? Where are the good overwatch positions? Where can my FO see the most of the field? Where should I set up my MG teams and mortars?

After all this is set, just throw the pieces in place. The setup is the strategic part of the game. Once you hit GO is when the tacitcal part kicks in.

The Defense is just the same.

Figure out how your opponent is going to attack. How do you know? Well, how would you attack it? Make preparations to defend the most obvious routes. Wet or Snowy ground? Cover the roads. Dry ground? People rarely use the roads when the ground is dry.

Setup an AT net. AT guns are cheaper than armor and I prefer them in defense since I can buy more infantry to supplement them. Setup your AT guns to cover the best approaches, and then put your AT mines in the spots that your guns can't see. Then place your infantry, AP mines, TRPs, FOs, support weaps.

I think I went a little further than the question asked. Just ignore me.

[TSword]

Louie,

My procedure for setup is essentially the same than yours, and i bet for many others too...

(Especially with loads of troops, double rows and the like..)

So, wouldn't it be nice (not moving the world of course) if troops are grouped a bit already ?

Say tanks together, platoons grouped, support grouped by type, Non Platoon HQ-units grouped.

The setup zone normally has enough room so the CM-SW could place them somewhere ahead of the rim of map..

[Gen-x87H]

Grab the toon commander, then the squads. Place them in a V. Take the completed toons and put them into their companies. If there are any support weapons like MGs or mortars I group them a little bit off. Then I take vehicles,armor, and guns into a group. Then decide my battle plan and delegate forces accordingly. It looks so nice until that first arty round comes in

Gen

[Pud]

Organise the platoons into V's each complete with piat (I normally only play Brits). Place mortars under the CO. Next check each Lt for his bonuses, and use this info for placement on the map. Place 1/3 of inf in a good reserve location that allows movement out of LOS to as much of my side of my map as possible. Find good possy for Co and his mortar entourage. After all inf placed, place Guns in appropriate location (depending on your Gun use doctrine). Last of all place armour.

[ March 26, 2002, 06:37 PM: Message edited by: Pud ]

[russellmz]

i think we can all agree that if the initial setup had the platoons organized with the HQ behind the squads and similar units grouped together, and the in a few more lines rather than one long straight line that we would all be happier, regardless if we like to just hit GO or spend half a day on setup.

[russellmz]

i think we can all agree that if the initial setup had the platoons organized with the HQ behind the squads and similar units grouped together, and the in a few more lines rather than one long straight line that we would all be happier, regardless if we like to just hit GO or spend half a day on setup.

[Ozzy]

Originally posted by Pud:

Organise the platoons into V's each complete with piat (I normally only play Brits). Place mortars under the CO. Next check each Lt for his bonuses, and use this info for placement on the map. Place 1/3 of inf in a good reserve location that allows movement out of LOS to as much of my side of my map as possible. Find good possy for Co and his mortar entourage. After all inf placed, place Guns in appropriate location (depending on your Gun use doctrine). Last of all place armour.

Here is where we can start from - place the platoons in a Vee, or Wedge (reverse Vee) or Column or Line formation, with or without a screening Team ahead, where to place the CO and where the HWs.

I know we again could start to discuss the question of micromanagement...

When I say I setup UP TO several hours, I do NOT mean 12 hours, but maybe a couple at a max.

I think it also depends on the situation you encounter. If in a meeting engagement or in an ambush situation, your setup time should be somewhat more restricted, while in a prepared assault/defense you can have more.

Of course it also depends of unit strength. I often play battles of Bn. size, so the time automatically increases.

However, the setup is good part of the CM game fun and tremendously effects one's chances in the battle itself.

Btw: One cigarette per 1500 points and a pint per 3000 points - much too less

Enjoy your personal setup party!! LOL

And Gents, let me add one general note: if somebody feels he needs to discuss a certain CM related question, then be it so - just let him.

A frequent argument of those which think that somebody talks crap (regardless whether this is the case or not) or complains about "CM's biggest shortcome" is

a) "Don't play if you don't like it!"

"Do we need a thread about this?"

For these people: please use the same criteria for your messages - IF YOU DO NOT LIKE WHAT PEOPLE POST SIMPLY DON'T ANSWER

Thanks

[Ex Bellator]

Hey Ozzy, if that outburst was directed at my post then my humour obviously doesn't travel well. It was a JOKE.

I'll stick to inane questions about Nebelwerfers and add smilies at all times from now on!

:confused: :cool:

[Redwolf]

It is was aimed at me, be sure I was joking as well.

I spend rather much time in setup, although not strickly on placing units, but studying the terrain. In the extreme case I take a fast tank, plot fast move all over the map, hit "1" and "TAB" and have a ride for a few hours.

[Dirtweasle]

Spare cigarettes or not, I do agree that having the platoons together would save a few minutes time each game.

Other than in CMMC I do not play games larger than 1500 - 3000 points that much. For me I just preffer the way company team sized battles perform in CM. Just my two cents, but a company team size force seems to be the sweet spot for CM.

I'm thinking that if battalions were the design sweet spot the user interace would be different, command and cotrol would slightly differnt, etc... something like a roster would be needed for instance.

Interesting thread though.

[Ozzy]

hey gents, it was not an outburst :mad:

but a general note

to everybody to be somewhat more lenient :cool: with those who either talk crap

or have not that much knowledge of the game :confused:

And I am referring to several threads in this forum, not only on this here

Please nobody feel insulted.

And yes, of course I would like to see the platoons and companies and other stuff placed close and properly together instead of a line along the friendly edge of the map.

And boy, cigarettes and beer is the best for playing CM - they simply contribute to the game fun

[Dirtweasle]

Ozzy , you got that rght. You have to get your smokes and suds lined up for an evening of TCP/IP... it's just a must have. Though sometimes, I'm sure I'd be better off with a pot of coffee to tell the truth!