Fast recon, how to beat it in ungamey manner.

[Stalins Organ]

There weer all sorts of allied mobile AA, not just the quad 50's and twin 40's.

There were several twin .50 mounts - on M3 half tracks and staghound a'cs I think, plus a single 40mm, and single, twin and tripple 20's on Crusader tank chassis.

Most of them were withdrawn (at least from British service) soon after D-Day since allied air superiority was almsot total.

[Jarmo]

Hmm.. ok, maybe the AA as AT defense isn't

gamey after all.

Oh, just occurred to mention I'm not really such a historic

stuff only tightass I might appear here. Most of the time I

buy whatever I happen to buy. Trying out weird combos.

Actually might have been my experimentations with unarmored

AA vehicles in a couple of games that really brought out

the whole AA-vehicles-are-gamey thing.

Oh, and I lost the game this thread is about.

And I had fun losing it.

Note, I didn't lose just because of the recon.

Basically I lost because Catnip is such a damn good player.

I think my 2 Hetzers and 2 Stugs managed to

kill all of 1 Cromwell...

[catnip]

Thank you Jarmo. Actually you killed two Cromwell VIIIs and all six of the humblers.

So far you are the best player I have played so far. I am sure our second game will be much harder for me.

[ScoutPL]

I've talked about this before but it was close to a year ago and most of the people on here I no longer recognize from those glory days anyway. So here it goes.

While I was serving with the 82nd Airborne Division in the late 80's, the division's AA battalion still had a number of 20mm Vulcan cannon in its TO&E. These were six barrel cannon with a rudimentary targeting system mounted on a wheeled trailer. They have since all been replaced by stinger missile variants. But while they absolutely sucked at engaging fast moving jet aircraft they cut slice through a helicopter or a vehicle with one well placed burst. They were awesome to listen to, too. Sounded a lot like what Odin's zipper might have sounded like whenever he had to take a break from the party up in Valhalla.

Anyway, we often integrated them into our Anti-armor defense. Mostly because an Airborne Infantry Battalion has practically nothing with which to fight tanks, so they have to use everything they can get their hands on. And they would get a couple kills when the enemy armor came rolling across the wide open Drop zones on Fort Bragg. But they inevitably died inglorious deaths, victims to overruns, arty fires or main gun tank fire. But since the grunts all usually died similiar deaths minutes later no one really seemed to notice...

I guess what I am saying is that AA guns can be used in a defense if the situation is desperate enough, though I wouldnt call it a regular everyday thing. If they made great tank busters, the army would just start issuing them to the infantry instead of the AA units.

Also everyone seems to have overlooked the most awesome tank killer of WWII, the German 88. These weapon systems could count for a large number of enemy armor kills when well protected and well sighted. But they also fell swiftly once the enemy had crossed the killing ground.

[Mr. Johnson--]

Just like the new scenario I've made called, guess what, Arras. And is the early war battle between Rommel's 7th Panzer Div and some brits.

[KiwiJoe]

I presume your gonna play another with Jarmo attacking, Catnip defending. If so can we a little AAR? I'd be interested to hear how things go.

[ScoutPL]

No Lloyd I wouldnt expose my can of Raid Wasp and Hornet Killer to take care of a fly I can handle with my fly swatter.

My little "personal narrative" was focused more on the use of AA guns in the defense in general. If you want me to go into TTP's I'd be happy to oblige. But then I'd probably bore the hell out of 99% of this posts readers.

[Gen-x87]

250/9s would make quick work of those pesky things.

I think even HMG 42s can beat up on them.

Once he has found you move you men out of there and let him waste Arty on a tree line.

But get some small arms AT and you should be fine.

NEver waste AT guns on small worthless vehicles like that unless it is a desperate measure. I once used a 88 Flak to track a sherman all over the right side of the map just rotating and hiding. Never did I fire cause I wanted my Stugs to take care of it. If all else failed I would have opened up on it. It worked for me. one of my 250/9s killed the gun on the sherman LOL! And then I rotated my 88 about 120 degrees to wait for his priest and Sherman 105. 1 turn later perfect LOS through a patch of trees and a dead sherman. He never knew my 88 was there.

If I would have opened up too early that 88 would have been dead. And my remaining stug had a 50/50 chance of killing that 105.

Short 75 rules are harsh on the Germans!

As for the cromwells, get em in close and smoke them with Fausts.

Good luck.

Gen

[JasonC]

First, every battalion did not have 6 20mm FLAK. Nothing remotely like it. Some infantry divisions had no FLAK assets at all, beyond their MGs anyway. When a division did have an AA battalion, the common load-out was 12 20mm FLAK and 2 20mm Quad FLAK - or 9 37mm FLAK - in a light AA company, and 12 88mm FLAK in a heavy one. Some divisions had only 1 light company in their divisional anti-tank battalion - common for infantry divisions.

Panzer divisions generally had a FLAK battalion with 2 companies of 88s and 1 of the light guns. The two Panzer battalions of the Panzer regiment each had 4 FLAK panzer at well. 20mm AA were pushed down to the regimental weapons companies, or the heavy weapons companies of battalions, sometimes. Often they were mounted on halftracks for direct fire (like the SPW-250 w/ 20mm in CM).

The amount you'd expect in a low-level front line fight would be 2 or 4. 6 would be rare. 2 guns were a "section", and were quite commonly used at the front. 4 were a battery, for most of the war anyway. In the infantry - not Panzergrenadiers - you'd also expect 2 75mm infantry guns in a company position, and up to 6 in a battalion position - or a 75mm FO. You might see 2-4 50mm or 75mm PAK, but not both types. Heavier PAK or FLAK (88) was rare compared to the 75mm, but 2 or 4 are possible. Then a company usually had 2 81mm mortars as well.

So, an infantry position could build up quite a large number of light guns, but not by having dozens of one item. Instead, they'd have 4 HMG, 2 81mm, 2 75mm, 2 20mm FLAK, 3 75mm PAK, say. Giving excellent anti-infantry firepower at long range - the main purpose of all these items pushed forward - and decent light AT ability as a by product. With some heavy AT ability, and some AA ability, plus some ability to lob shells at high angles over terrain, etc. The mix was flexible. Sometimes one of those "2s" would be "4", while another type was missing.

On the light armor problem, I would not discount fausts and schrecks so easily. Faust 30s aren't going to help much. But with the others, you can materially improve the chances of getting hits, even against fast vehicles, by using ambush markers. The fausts can use an ambush marker set by their platoon HQ. It helps if they can see the vehicle coming, and then fire later.

Notice also that without ambush markers, both will tend to fire at long ranges where the hit chance is low. The ambush markers will induce them to hold their fire until the range is good, and the hit chance high. I find 80 meters or less works best for schreck ambushes, and for fausts you want 30 or 40 meter range for faust 60 and 100 respectively. It also helps if the line of fire is free of intervening trees, which degrade the hit chance significantly even with a blue LOS line. From behind a wall is the best, clearest shot. You are invisible while hidden and the shot is clean once the ambush marker is hit. From the very edge of woods, or inside buildings, are decent - though the former is fairly vunerable to reply fire and the second pins the shooter.

A good fire plan should cover some areas with overlapping half-ranges of fausts or schrecks, for some passages through terrain vehicles can't get through - and cover all others with the LOS of a couple of light guns. Preferably not including your heavy PAK, so you can keep those hidden to shoot tanks with. Set up the ambush markers and have everyone facing his assigned spot, so time is not lost on rotation. If nobody comes one way, reassign new ambush markers to cover other zones - the new one will take effect and the old will disappear quickly.

I hope this helps.

[Moriarty]

One of the best defenses I have found for rapid recon by jeeps or other light vehicles are HMGs, specifically Ma Deuce and the HMG-42 (still not a big fan of the Vickers). Both sides have them, they're relatively cheap, they can turn to keep up with the vehicles and easily take out the thinly armored ones. They're also a big nuisance to most of the ACs.

Just my 2 cents.

Hiya, Jarmo!

[ 06-05-2001: Message edited by: Moriarty ]

[Jarmo]

Well the second game is also over.

I defended again.

This time I packed some 20mm's, other guns, tank destroyers.

Some 120mm mortars to harass the incoming infantry.

She dropped lots of smoke, the scout cars buzzed around and were promptly destroyed.

Cromwells blew up my scout cars and 20mm guns.

Her infantry came in a broad front and totally ran over my defenses.

My tank destroyers were helpless against piat sideshots.

I had to give up at turn 10...

[Vanir Ausf B]

Wow! This Kitty's got claws

[catnip]

In the last game the settings were Heavy woods on a flat map. I tried my best to advance my troops through nearby tree patches in an effort to get close to the village and with smoke, most of my troops made it into the village area suffering minor casualties.

As usual, jarmo fought very well, but was outnumbered. Jarmo played defense better than I ever could have.

It looks like i'll need all 9 lives for our current game.

[KiwiJoe]

So your playing a 3rd game with Jarmo attacking now?

Updates please