Did the Maus see combat?

[Panzer Leader]

What do you think?

Courtedsy of this EXCELLENT site: AFV Interiors

[Patgod]

nah it didnt see combat, it just pissed off the monkey.

[gunnergoz]

The photo looks like the one the Germans destroyed at their test grounds so it would not be captured intact. IIRC the turret was installed on the chassis that is now at Kubinka, the Russian armor museum and their own tank test and development grounds.

What a waste of resources that the late war uber-tank programs were! And thank Goodness for that!

:eek:

[Panzer Leader]

Originally posted by gunnergoz:

The photo looks like the one the Germans destroyed at their test grounds so it would not be captured intact. IIRC the turret was installed on the chassis that is now at Kubinka, the Russian armor museum and their own tank test and development grounds.

What a waste of resources that the late war uber-tank programs were! And thank Goodness for that!

:eek:

That is what the web-site said, however, they also mentioned that it is *possible* that it saw combat:

The best current theory is that at least one of the prototype vehicles was temporarily operational and then blown/destroyed, perhaps in battle with the Russians at Kummersdorf or by the Germans to keep the vehicle from falling into Russian hands

[Kingfish]

Looks like it was taken out by either a Stuart or Greyhound

[BeauCoupDinkyDau]

Originally posted by Kingfish:

Looks like it was taken out by either a Stuart or Greyhound

Pfft! Whatever. You know that was taken out by some gamey bastard using Jeep MGs!

[Panzer Leader]

Is this topic really too ludicrous for even a single serious comment? I guess it has been gone-over too many times to re-hash again or something, but I just keep thinking of cool scenarios like "The Last Maus" or something where a factory or training school (you know like the old movie, was it called "Taps?") has a Maus that they use to try and stem the onslaught of the Russians. That would be so cool, and the idea that it is even POSSIBLE that something similar did indeed happen is intriguing to me.

I would like to know from some-one who has seen this Maus at Kubinka if there are any penetrations or even shell-deflections on the beast. That would maybe not *prove* it had seen combat, since they could've been testing it, or target-shooting, but it would at least make it more of a possibility.

[Brian]

According to all the evidence, no Maus saw combat. When it was first revealed that a Maus actually still existed, at Kabinka way back in 1986 (or was '87) through the UK magazine Wheels and Tracks (BTW, if you can ever get a hold of that journal, I'd heartily recommend it), it was even then suggested that the Kabinka beast was an amalgam of the two prototypes.

Since then, with the fall of the fUSSR, the new evidence has been only to confirm that the vehicle in Russia is made up from two vehicles. One of which was destroyed in order to prevent it falling into Soviet hands. The hull of the other was then given its turret and shipped off for testing to Moscow. Apparently the hull does have some signs of having been fired at but as to whether or not this was the result of testing or the damage caused during its capture, I have no idea.

As the manufacturing plants were all in the western zone, your scenario would have been far more likely there. When the British occupied the factories in the Ruhr they found quite a few E100/Maus turrets and only one incomplete E100 hulls. I've seen pictures of one factory/proving ground with three or four turrets and two E100 hulls and another with two other turrets.

[Mattias]

Spielberger cuts down the speculations to a minimum in his book covering the Maus, he says (my translation):

As the war drew to an end in 1945 both prototypes where at Kummersdorf for testing. Here they were blown up to prevent the advancing Soviets from capturing them. A few hulls and turrets were found at Krupp's manufacturing plant and at the test range in Meppen (owned by Krupp).

The most plausible what if scenario would take place near Kummersdorf that is..

M.

[Shadow 1st Hussars]

It left the Garage in April '45. Due to it's low top speed, the war was over by the time it was out of the driveway.

[John D Salt]

Originally posted by Panzer Leader:

Is this topic really too ludicrous for even a single serious comment? [snips]

Yeah, I think so.

It would IMHO be stretching things a bit to want to see all the AFV types that we are quite sure *did* see combat in tiny numbers, such as the StuIG33B (24 built), 38cm Sturmmorser Tiger (18), 10.5cm Pz Sfl IVa, 12.8cm Pz Sfl V (2 each) or for the Sovs the SU-14-2 or SU-100Y (1 each). I suggest that anything produced in smaller numbers than the Jadgtiger (77) can probably be neglected; I would much rather have those common types that are still missing, such as the Daimler Dingo and the AEC and Staghound armoured cars.

Of course, the reason for wanting a Maus is because it's a *BIG* frigging tank. If one is going to model BFTs that never saw combat, then I'd like to see such types as Tortoise (so I can blow the Maus to bits on the nose at a safe distance with 32-pdr APDS), Excelsior and the M-6 (which at least featured in German ID guides) and those that just missed the war like Centurion and IS-3.

On the whole, though, I'd prefer BTS to focus its efforts on filling in as much historical coverage as possible before wandering off into fantasy aming. There are still the desert campaigns, Italy, the Pacific and Burma to cover in WW2. Once those are done I'd rather like to see the system exapnded to the Spanish Civil War, the Gran Chaco War, Korea and the Arab-Israeli and Indo-Pakistan wars. There's so much history to learn about, I don't see the need to invent things; but I expect there are some people who'd prefer an SF extension to let them fight lizardly aliens as per the Harry Turtledove books.

All the best,

John.

[Warphead]

I have been to Kubinka twice now. And Brian pretty much summed up the official story the Russians tell you there...

[Mattias]

Warphead-

Are there any difficulties in getting into the museum nowadays? Is it hard to get to if I should pass by Moscow and have a day off?

M.

[Brian]

I just had a thought, shouldn't we call this thread "The Maus that Roared"?

[Panzer Leader]

I think you're right Brian, and I guess most people would agree that the Maus probably never saw combat.

However, regardless of where the Soviets got their Maus, this photo shows that at one time, probably before the war ended, a COMPLETE and running Maus existed.

And John, I tend to agree with you, and am not starting up a "Bring in the Maus!" thread, I am just curious. But besides that, we all have the things we want and feel the game should try to reproduce, so your opinion is just that. And calling this "SF" is a little harsh. The Maus was designed and engineered before the war ended and it was "PUT INTO PRODUCTION" before the war ended. WHether it fired a shot or not is really immaterial to the fact that the Maus is "A WW2 TANK."

[HVAP]

I use my maus every day to play CM regardless of side. Sorry I have nothing to add

[killmore]

I read once a soviet book that stated that digged in Maus was protecting a Nazi building in Berlin. The author was not sure whether this was a complete tank or just a turret. Author also described soviet problem in taking it out. Basically nothing worked and finally it runned out of ammo.

In fact author mentioned 2 Maus in the Berlin itself. These were not working/completed tanks, just a firing turret.

I have no idea whether this report was true. It was in the "Tiger" series of books in Poland/Soviet Union.