Will CMBB have the Americans? I can't recall.

[Stuka]

Don't forget that it was the Australians who captured the 8th army at Stalingrad!

[Paul T. Gardner]

Thomas Goetz, I'm glad you don't let that info go to waste, I find it very interesting.

Thanks for the correction BTW - I knew I was pushing the boat out by saying 'directly based on German designs' but my interest is in late war German design and development (vehicles as well as aircraft), and so I'm a bit bias.

I also have a crackpot theory that the Americans and Russians played down the extent of inluence German technology had on their postwar designs because of the coldwar. After all, if you're vying to be the numero uno world superpower, you're hardly going to give much credit to a third rate, and recently defeated 'superpower' for your latest designs?

Deeper research into this shows that it was more a case of playing up the plus points about a piece of equipments' capabilities rather than playing down its origins. The latter point sort of gets lost in the 'hey look what we've got' competition.

I'm still a bit suspicious though, given the pervading thoughts at the time, as to just how accurate the history books are on this matter.

Rgds

[ June 18, 2002, 07:41 AM: Message edited by: Paul T. Gardner ]

[illo]

Indiginously produced Soviet jet aircraft did not begin to appear until after World War II. Most of the early designs were based heavily on captured German technology, and took advantage of German aerodynamic research, and engine designs such as the BMW 003. The first two Soviet jet aircraft to enter production were the Mikoyan-Gurevich MiG 9 fighter and the Yakovlev Yak 15 fighter. Both aircraft were demonstrated to Soviet Party Officials on the same day, with the honour of the first flight being decided on the toss of a coin; the MiG 9 beat the Yak 15 into the air by just one hour on 24 April 1946

The North American F-86 Sabre was the West's first swept wing fighter, making it's maiden flight on 1 October 1947. This aircraft was far more advanced than any other Western type at the time and proved very successful. Some 10,000 aircraft of this make were eventually produced. [10]

(Germanys first swept wing fighter was Me 262A which made i's maiden flight in 1942. First jet ever to fly was He 280 in 2 April 1941)

http://www.soton.ac.uk/~genesis/Level1/Main3c.htm

Ta 183

Post war soviet prototype leading to Mig-15.

Mig-15.

Me p.1101

X-5

F-86

Influence of german designs can't be denied. Allies didn't even have efficient axial flow turbojet nor swept wing designs before end of ww2 AFAIK.

[ June 18, 2002, 11:51 PM: Message edited by: illo ]

[Michael Dorosh]

Originally posted by Thomas Goetz:

As did Canada, who sent troops to Siberia at the end of World War One - a little known chapter of our history.

[Michael Dorosh]

Originally posted by Paul T. Gardner:

A few points -

It is widely thought that Patton wished to fight the Soviets at the conclusion of WWII, and indeed many Germans thought that the US would side with Germany as the war drew to a close in order to repel the Red menace from Europe.

As notable a figure as Adolf Galland held such views. He offered to use his new jet equiped units to fight for the Americans against the USSR, however, they refused him and merely asked that he surrender and turn over his planes.

Also, regarding the German view on this point, I have this quote from Rudolph Salvermoser, A Großdeutschland Veteran, by Robert Witter on Feldgrau.com:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr /> Anyway, here we were with the remnants of Großdeutschland, right beside the American 45th Infantry Division. I could not figure out why the Americans treated us so cordially and respectfully. I always thought when a soldier surrendered to the enemy, the first thing he did was to deliver his weapons to his captors. This was not the case, however, so I could only speculate on their reasons for allowing us to remain armed. Earlier, while we were still on the road from Linz, we met several German infantrymen who were toting their weapons and headed east. We stopped and asked them where they were going, that the Russians were coming and, if they were looking for their unit, they could come with us. "No," they replied, "we are going east to fight the Russians because the Americans are going to aid us!" Our lieutenant thought that this was ridiculous because it was highly unlikely that an enemy would turn around and, after beating you, would help you fight their own allies.

Thomas Goetz notes most of the well known incidents US and Soviet met in battle, though an interesing and somewhat unrelated point about US and Soviet pilots meeting in Korea is that the technology they were flying was directly based on German research and development. The MiG-15 is based on the (Kurt Tank/Focke-Wulfe) Ta-183, and the NA F-86 Sabre on the Messerschmitt P.1101.

Also, I guess it's worth mentioning that the British Royal Navy even helped against the Soviets when in December 1918 they prevented the fall of Tallinn (Estonia), allowing the Estonian Army to force Red Army units back from their push into the Baltic States.

Rgds</font>

[WWB]

Belgium sent two brigades over to Russia during WWI. They have a nice little exhbit on it at the Musee de l'Armee in Brussels.

WWB

[Commissar]

Originally posted by Louie the Toad:

Commissar,

Thanks for the concise and polite reply. Wasn't there a time near the end of the war where US and Russian forces came close together? Defeating the Germans and then shaking hands and all. Wasn't Patton interested in a confrontation with the Russians? What about the territory grab that resulted in East/West Germany and Berlin?

--From my understanding, the Russians and the Americans did meet up on the River Elbe but they pretty much stayed on their side of things. There wasn't anything you could call mixed operations. The Western Allies had the chance to take Berlin but it was decided for both military and political reasons not to do so. The Russians were very worried that the Western allies would take advantage of the fact that most of the German Army was located East and simply waltz into Berlin against light to little German resistance since many Germans would prefer British/American occupation to Soviet occupation. Part of the reason why the Russians lost so many men in the final operations in Germany was because Stalin feared the Western Allies would steal his prize away from him. He constantly pressured his commanders to go faster and faster to ensure that the Western Allies did not "cheat" Russia out of her just reward. After the horrors the Russians had faced during Barbarossa and the entire East Front campaign, the Russians were not going to be denied the prize of entering Berlin and maybe capturing Hitler and parading him naked in a cage like a monkey in Red Square. The Western allies did not want to "offend" their Russian allies so they agreed Russia would get the honor of storming Berlin. The other reason was Eisenhower knew full well that although the German Army was pretty much smashed and the result inevitable, taking Berlin was not going to be any cakewalk. The Germans would resist fiercely, even fanatically. Causalities were expected to be very high. If the Russians wanted to take the losses to capture Berlin for the Allied side, so be it.

It's pretty clear Patton had no love for the Russians. "War with the Bolsheviks was inevitable, so why not fight them now?," was more or less his thinking. I believe he was even suggesting rearming German troops and having them join the Americans to fight against the Russians.

Although I certainly relish the chance to play US forces against Soviet forces in "what if" scenarios like a full scale Fulda Gap attack a la 1946-50's style, BTS won't be able to let us do so for now. Hopefully in a future CM they'll have the time.

[Thomas Goetz]

Originally posted by killmore:

Actually there was a british fighter squadron in Soviet Union!

I can't be positive about this, but I don't recall any actual British combat units deployed to the Soviet Union. They did send a fair number of combat aircraft, including Spitfires and Hurricanes, and usually sent various maintainence crews and pilots with them to teach the Russians how to use the equipment. Some of the British pilots flew combat missions as well. That may well account for reports of British fighter squadrons in Russia.

If not British, there was at least one Western fighter squadron in the Soviet Union. The French volunteer fighter squadron Normandie Niemen flew Yak 1 and Yak 9 fighters, and compiled an impressive combat record. As members may recall, there was a large and aggressive Communist Party in France, and some of its members made their way to the Soviet Union to fight the fascists after the defeat of France. Normandie Niemen is not the only volunteer combat outfit in the Soviet Union, of course - other conquered nations, such as the Poles and Czechs also fielded air and ground combat units.

And as long as I am on the subject of foreign equipment/soldiers in the Soviet Union, I thought I should mention the memoir of the Russian tank commander from one of the units equipped with Lend Lease Shermans. Can't remember the title offhand, and haven't been able to read it yet, but I do seem to recall that this outfit liked their Shermans a lot better than the standard T-34. Apparently the Shermans were more reliable, comfortable, and easy to maintain, and the unit was able to use them very effectively in combat as well.

[Michael Emrys]

Originally posted by Thomas Goetz:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by killmore:

Actually there was a british fighter squadron in Soviet Union!

I can't be positive about this, but I don't recall any actual British combat units deployed to the Soviet Union. They did send a fair number of combat aircraft, including Spitfires and Hurricanes, and usually sent various maintainence crews and pilots with them to teach the Russians how to use the equipment. Some of the British pilots flew combat missions as well. That may well account for reports of British fighter squadrons in Russia.</font>

[killmore]

Originally posted by Thomas Goetz:

[QB] </font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by killmore:

Actually there was a british fighter squadron in Soviet Union!

I can't be positive about this, but I don't recall any actual British combat units deployed to the Soviet Union. They did send a fair number of combat aircraft, including Spitfires and Hurricanes, and usually sent various maintainence crews and pilots with them to teach the Russians how to use the equipment. Some of the British pilots flew combat missions as well. That may well account for reports of British fighter squadrons in Russia.

QB]</font>

[Thomas Goetz]

Originally posted by illo:

Germanys first swept wing fighter was Me 262A which made i's maiden flight in 1942. First jet ever to fly was He 280 in 1939)

Influence of german designs can't be denied. Allies didn't even have efficient axial flow turbojet nor swept wing designs before end of ww2 AFAIK.

First, I loved the pictures. I've never seen the one of the Ta 183 in Russian markings, where did that come from? I've seen speculation about the Soviets testing Ta 183s they built from components (the Germans never did get any assembled before the Russians overran the factories), but never seen any hard evidence.

Both the Me 262 and the He 280 began the design process in 1939, in anticipation of the availability of the new "Special Power Plant" that German industry was working on. But a useable model of the jet engine was not available until 1942, so both planes made their first flights then. The Me 262 was actually flight tested initially with a piston engine in the nose! Try William Green, "Warplanes of the Third Reich" for lots of excellent technical details.

To expand on some of my earlier comments - the Russians did in fact have some fairly advanced research on jet engines during the early stages of the war, but shelved it due to the overwhelming needs of current production. They didn't really need jets during the war either.

As the war ended, and they began to encounter German jets, as well as hear about American and British ones, Stalin decided he needed a jet of his own "right now". Disappointing Stalin was not a good idea, so the various Soviet design bureaus took lots of shortcuts. The early Yak and MiG jets were bascially prop planes with a captured Ggerman jet engine stuck in place of the piston one. Looked kind of bizzare, but they flew, although the performance was no better (or even worse!) than a conventional prop plane.

The MiG-15 did benefit enormously from German research into swept wings, and undoubtedly borrowed a number of design concepts from the Ta 183. But it was a good deal more than a quick copy of the Ta 183. Oh, yes, I almost forgot - the MiG-15 was powered by a Rolls Royce engine! The rights to this engine (the Nene, if anyone is interested) were obtained completely legally during the late 40s by Soviet Union from the very helpful Labour government of Great Britain.

The Bell X-5 was in fact a direct copy of the Messerschmitt P.1101. But it was built entirely to evaluate the "swing wing" feature of the German craft, and then only because the German machine was too banged up to be tested safely, even after being fitted with an American engine. The data obtained on the variable sweep wing proved to be very useful, but no other machines were directly produced from the P.1101.

As far as swept wings, couple of points. The Me 262 actually had very mildly swept wings, only about 15 degrees of angle. Enough to clean it up aerodynamically, but not enough to bring it to supersonic speeds. The only really successful German swept wing combat aircraft was the Me 163 rocket fighter, which had excellent aerodynamics, although it was, because of its fuels, exceptionally dangerous to its own pilots. A planned redesign of the Me 262 was to incorporate a 35 degree sweep, and it was the models and wind tunnel test data for this version that proved so useful to the engineers at North American, who ended up putting a 35 degree sweep on the F-86.

The US did produce at least one swept wing aircraft during the war - the Curtiss XP-55 Ascender, which not only had swept wings, but a cannard design, with the wings in back and the smaller control surfaces in front. The thing had horrible handling characteristics, because although swept wings give better high speed flight characteristics, they can cause some severe low speed problems. It took the addition of leading edge wing slats, which altered the shape and lift of the wing at low speeds, to make the swept wing safe. The Germans certainly did pioneer the use of slats, with Prof. Messerschmitt using them since the mid 1930s.

As for the axial engine, I'm afraid I have to disagree with illo on this one. The design work for the Republic P-84 was contracted for in late 1944 specifically to make use of the new General Electric TG 180 axial flow engine. Although the prototype P-84 did not fly until the beginning of 1946, the engine was in the pipeline from early 1944, and was itself a refinement of earlier axial flow engines.

Whoa, better stop now, or I'll end up retyping my entire dissertation. And who would want to read a 500 page post?

[Michael Emrys]

Originally posted by illo:

Post war soviet prototype leading to Mig-15.

Just as an aside, Aurora had a model of this in their Famous Fighters series in the early '50s. It was identified as a Yak, but I forget the number. Why they picked this and not the MiG-15 for the series I'll never know.

:confused:

Michael

[Thomas Goetz]

Originally posted by killmore:

I watched this Soviet movie in 1980s at least twice. The movie was about British pilots who decided to fight in the "real" war and came to Soviet union to fight. As the movie goes initially 12 british pilots in british uniforms freezing their ass-off. Later they got warmer soviet uniforms. When only a couple of them left and learned how to drink vodka additional 30 pilots come. Notice fair amount of propaganda in the movie. But movie was also giving specific pilot names, dates, numbers and claimed to be historical... Yes I know this is not exactly hard-reference.

Wasn't there a couple of british squadrons based in Soviet Union and protecting convoys to Murmansk?

Both you and Michael mention Hurricanes at Murmansk, and that sounds plausible. Even without friction with Soviet officials, that sounds like a hellish posting, especially for Brits. Can't imagine they saw much action, given the weather and climate, at any rate.

The movie you describe almost sounds like the story of the Normandie Niemen. I cannot imagine any British pilot wanting to go to Russia just to fight Germans, when he could easily get a combat posting in the RAF. Nor can I readily imagine the British government giving permission to trained combat pilots to go fight for someone else! French pilots, Vichy or Free, on the other hand... But I could also be wrong, and most of my references are in storage anyway, darn it.

Anyway, its an interesting idea. Now, if we could only get fighter aces into CMBB somehow....

[Hedgehog]

There is a monument to the Polar Bear Division here in Troy, Michigan. The division was recruited mainly in Michigans UP, mainly made up of Finnish immigrants. I won a photography contest for my picture of it. Strangely enough my picture of a road sign right by the cemetary did not win. I guess the polar bear division>exit 69 Big Beaver Rd.

Its the White Chapel cemetary. I believe they were meant to hook up with the white russians along the trans siberian rail way. They never got far out of Archangel.

[killmore]

Originally posted by Thomas Goetz:

The movie you describe almost sounds like the story of the Normandie Niemen.[/QB]

Who were "Normandie Niemen"? (Pardon my ignorance)

[Andreas]

Originally posted by Thomas Goetz:

Both you and Michael mention Hurricanes at Murmansk, and that sounds plausible. Even without friction with Soviet officials, that sounds like a hellish posting, especially for Brits. Can't imagine they saw much action, given the weather and climate, at any rate.

Thomas, here is some info culled from this website.

The first 25 Hurricanes (with tropical air filters because these planes were originally intended for use in North Africa) arrived in the Soviet Union in August 1941 in form of No. 151 Wing (Squadrons Nos. 81 and 134) of the

RAF under the command of Wing Commodore Ramsbottom-Isherwood. This unit had been transported to Vaenga near Murmansk on board of the aircraft carrier HMS "Argus" to defend the first of the PQ convoys between Iceland and Murmansk on it's last leg. By November the British had trained enough Soviet personnel on the Hurricane that they could hand over the machines to the Russians (72 IAP) and leave the country again. During their stay in Russia the British lost only one pilot and achieved a number of kills (for example 3 Bf 109s and damaging of one Hs 126 on September 12, 1941). But they also faced problems with engine failures caused by

bad fuel quality.

Makes it sound a bit less romantic then 'wanting to fight in the real war'.

[Sig]

Originally posted by killmore:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Thomas Goetz:

The movie you describe almost sounds like the story of the Normandie Niemen.

Who were "Normandie Niemen"? (Pardon my ignorance)[/QB]</font>

[Monty's Double]

There's a book about Hurricanes over Murmansk. I think it's called "Hurricanes over Murmansk". If I can be bothered I'll try an Amazon search.

[Thomas Goetz]

Originally posted by killmore:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Thomas Goetz:

The movie you describe almost sounds like the story of the Normandie Niemen.

Who were "Normandie Niemen"? (Pardon my ignorance)</font>

[tiborhead]

Originally posted by Commissar:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Louie the Toad:

Commissar,

Thanks for the concise and polite reply. Wasn't there a time near the end of the war where US and Russian forces came close together? Defeating the Germans and then shaking hands and all. Wasn't Patton interested in a confrontation with the Russians? What about the territory grab that resulted in East/West Germany and Berlin?

--From my understanding, the Russians and the Americans did meet up on the River Elbe but they pretty much stayed on their side of things. There wasn't anything you could call mixed operations. The Western Allies had the chance to take Berlin but it was decided for both military and political reasons not to do so. The Russians were very worried that the Western allies would take advantage of the fact that most of the German Army was located East and simply waltz into Berlin against light to little German resistance since many Germans would prefer British/American occupation to Soviet occupation. Part of the reason why the Russians lost so many men in the final operations in Germany was because Stalin feared the Western Allies would steal his prize away from him. He constantly pressured his commanders to go faster and faster to ensure that the Western Allies did not "cheat" Russia out of her just reward. After the horrors the Russians had faced during Barbarossa and the entire East Front campaign, the Russians were not going to be denied the prize of entering Berlin and maybe capturing Hitler and parading him naked in a cage like a monkey in Red Square. The Western allies did not want to "offend" their Russian allies so they agreed Russia would get the honor of storming Berlin. The other reason was Eisenhower knew full well that although the German Army was pretty much smashed and the result inevitable, taking Berlin was not going to be any cakewalk. The Germans would resist fiercely, even fanatically. Causalities were expected to be very high. If the Russians wanted to take the losses to capture Berlin for the Allied side, so be it.

It's pretty clear Patton had no love for the Russians. "War with the Bolsheviks was inevitable, so why not fight them now?," was more or less his thinking. I believe he was even suggesting rearming German troops and having them join the Americans to fight against the Russians.

Although I certainly relish the chance to play US forces against Soviet forces in "what if" scenarios like a full scale Fulda Gap attack a la 1946-50's style, BTS won't be able to let us do so for now. Hopefully in a future CM they'll have the time.</font>

[John Kettler]

Well, we did have military observers in Russia, but Stalin saw to it they didn't actually get to watch the Russian Army operate by keeping them far away from the action. Then we had some shuttle bombing going on, with bombers temporarily based in Russia.

One such base, Poltava, got heavily bombed, destroying and damaging many four-engined bombers. I recall the book on that disaster laid the blame at Uncle Joe's door. Apparently, he signaled displeasure with his allies by failing to protect the airfield on which our shuttle bombers were based. The Luftwaffe got a free ride. We also had all kinds of service and transport troops in Persia, now Iran, whose particular purpose was supply delivery to Russia. I'd guess everything was handed over at the frontier. Of course, none of these falls under the rubric of "combat troops."

Those of you interested in technology transfer to Russia are referred to Anthony Sutton's (then a Hoover Fellow) NATIONAL SUICIDE and its sequel THE BEST ENEMY MONEY CAN BUY. The first book is a distillation of a formidable three volume pioneering study he wrote while at the Hoover Institute for War and Peace; the second picks up where the first ends and takes it through the Reagan administration. Mr. Sutton died recently.

Regards,

John Kettler