Newbie Questions

[Resyk]

Just received my full copy of CMBO and it looks great, however I'm not convinced the manual is really that great. I have a few newbie questions..

* Every mission I seem to have a bunch of Spotters. How do I use them? If I take them forward and Target with them, why can I not then fire mortars etc at that target (I seem to need LOS for mortars etc which can't be right.)

* Why is there a 10 sec delay at the start of each Action phase where all my units/vehicles just sit there doing nothing? Is there any way to get them moving quicker?

* Were Tanks really this inaccurate? Surely a bunker 300m away shouldn't take 20 shells to take out. I seem to spend a lot of time popping away at bunkers trying to get rid of them.

* How come I am always spotted if I try crawling thru a cornfield with a rifle squad, even up to 250m away a bunker will see me? The manual suggests this is decent cover.

Any help or advice much appreciated.

[Cani]

I'm fairly new myself, but I'll give it a go.

You need to distinguish between spotters (offboard arty) and mortar (onboard arty). Spotters call in arty from the big guns while mortar crews carries their mortar equipment around the map. Onboard mortar requires LOS. (Don't say anything about this, the CM horde will flame you to death.) Offboard arty doesn't require LOS but have a much longer response time, especially if the spotter hasn't LOS and is not in command.

All units have a delay to simulate the time it takes for commanders orders to reach the squads. More experienced squads reacts faster, so do squads that are in command.

Taking out bungers from 300 meters is about hitting the firing slit, which is fairly small.

I don't think you're spotted from 250 meters. It's more likely another closer enemy that has spotted you and told the bunker where you are. What one enemy see all enemies see.

[Soddball]

Cani is mostly right. "Spotters" are spotting for offboard arty and don't need line of sight. If they don't have line of sight to their target, the time the rounds take to come in take rather longer - usually about twice as long.

Mortars (the units themselves) need direct line of sight to hit the target, or you can use a headquarters unit (Platoon, Company or Battalion HQ) to spot for the mortar. To do this, the mortar must be in the command of the HQ unit (red line linking HQ and mortar). Then you left click the HQ, shift-left-click the mortar (assuming you're on a PC and not a mac), and 'target'. You will then end up with an orange line to the target you've picked.

Tank accuracy varies according to weapon. There have been lots of arguments about this here, and generally, the higher the velocity of the weapon, the greater accuracy at long range - so the British 17pdr, American 76mm and German 88mm are very accurate at longer ranges (1km), whereas the British 95mm, American 105mm and German 105mm (which are primarily anti-infantry weapons) are much less accurate.

Spotting in a cornfield can be affected by season. Crawling through a field when it's winter (and there is only stubble or soil) isn't going to do you any favours. The manual makes this clear.

[Mattias]

[mostly repetition at the time of posting it seems..]

--

Page 87-90 in the manual not enough to explain it?

With off board FO's you target whatever you want with them, if you have LOS the delay will be shorter and the accuracy will be higher. If you do not have LOS you will have to wait longer and see more shells hit off the target.

--

On board mortars can't fire without LOS since once you get them moving, it is assumed, there is not enough time in a game to set them up for indirect fire again. If they stay put throughout the game you can use any leader within command radius as spotter by firing at any point within the HQ's field of vision.

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The delay is one of the most central concepts of CM, check page 72.

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The opening of a bunker is a small target, the whole idea with bunkers is to make them as hard as possible to knock out. Nothing remarkable with 20 rounds in real life, if anything tanks kill bunkers too easily in CM.

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It is decent concealment, unless you are playing a winter time scenario. But decent doesn't mean absolute and since it only takes one enemy unit to spot you and "tell" all the others you had better use it with caution. Once you are spotted in that field (not a corn field by the way) you don't get very much actual cover from it.

Use a leader with good "stealth" ability (question mark in the unit bar) to improve your chances of sneaking through the field.

--

This, of course, assuming you have a manual similar to the one that came with the game from BTS and not some skimpy euro-scam pamphlet.

--

Keep asking though, it shall all be revealed

M.

[ April 03, 2002, 06:52 AM: Message edited by: Mattias ]

[Resyk]

Thanks for the replies guys, most helpful.

> Page 87-90 in the manual not enough to explain

> it?

Umm. no. At least not for a complete novice like myself. I suppose th idea that a mortar had to see its target baffled me a little. These posts have made it clearer.

> This, of course, assuming you have a manual

> similar to the one that came with the game from

> BTS and not some skimpy euro-scam pamphlet.

It is whatever one gets when purchasing through this site (posted from Ireland along with the game CD).

Anyhow - thanks for the help. This afternoon is really going to drag now..

[Conscript Bagger]

Originally posted by Mattias:

On board mortars can't fire without LOS since once you get them moving, it is assumed, there is not enough time in a game to set them up for indirect fire again. If they stay put throughout the game you can use any leader within command radius as spotter by firing at any point within the HQ's field of vision.

This is potentially confusing, as there are two concepts being discussed at once. With on-board mortars there are two ways to fire out of LOS:

1. While in command of a HQ unit that can see the target you're firing at. In this case, both the mortar and the HQ are free to move wherever they like before and after the mortar fires (except, IIRC, mortars can't fire from inside a building).

2. While targeting a Target Reference Point (purchased under the "Fortifications" category, and not available in all scenarios). In this case, it's not necessary so far as I know for the mortar to be in command. However, it cannot have moved from its game-start position before firing on a non-LOS TRP. Once it has moved, the only way to fire out of LOS is using method #1 above.

[CMplayer]

If you want to have some fun and learn about arty spotters at the same time try this little exercise that EVERY CM player has tried at least once.

Go into the scenario editor and set the date to June 1944. Autogenerate a village map. Purchase a 14" naval gun spotter (American) and a German infantry battalion. Billet the battalion in the town, and put the arty spotter in good cover on a hill overlooking the town.

Save the scenario as 'Mr Boom', and then run it. Play the Americans. Do what feels natural.

And don't forget to have smoke effects turned onto 'full'.

[MikeyD]

CMBO can't be described as an "immediate gratification" game. Realistic delays in orders and inaccuracies are built into the game. It may be frustrating a first getting your green tank crew to hit a target at dawn/dusk for example, but you soon get into the rythm of the game.

Half of fun of the game is playing with the terrain and unit responses taken into consideration. If your platoon bolts after receiving mg fire while standing in a corn field, then don't leave 'em standing in a corn field!

CMBB is going to be even more of a challenge when it comes out. Conscript Russian units in mid-winter being forced into human wave assaults by gun-toting political officers. Tanks without radios. That'll be QUITE a challenge!

[CMplayer]

Originally posted by MikeyD:

CMBO can't be described as an "immediate gratification" game.

You obviously haven't played 'Mr Boom'.

[Mattias]

Originally posted by Offwhite:

After testing:

Damn, your right!

I could have sworn this was not supposed to work. If mortars can move and fire "indirectly" by HQ LOS as much as they want the whole idea of indirect fire setup time limitations is null in CM.

I was so sure about this that I have not even tried to move a mortar that has been setup for indirect fire from the start, other than to fire directly.

Has anyone else labored under this misapprehension? Is this how it was supposed to work?

M.

[Slappy]

This is how it was supposed to work. If the HQ can observe fire (LOS to target) and call corrections to the mortar (mortar in command), why not? You only lose the TRP benifits by moving. Once in a new position, the mortar will have to re-sight elevation and bearing all over again (impossible to do w/ no LOS or observer).

[Conscript Bagger]

Originally posted by Mattias:

I was so sure about this that I have not even tried to move a mortar that has been setup for indirect fire from the start, other than to fire directly.

I apologize to all your PBEM opponents for pointing that out. I'm surprised you didn't know - since you've been a member of this board longer than I have, I thought you'd just misspoken in your post. Makes me wonder how many things I still have to learn about CM! :eek:

[Smiler]

Originally posted by CMplayer:

You obviously haven't played 'Mr Boom'.

heheheh. I've played both Mr. Boom and another variation involving a horde of 105mm Priests, a German battalion, and very little cover. I have to be honest though, when I saw all of the inf desparately trying to take cover in the single square of brush in the area, I felt so bad I had to surrender. No joke.

But I think Mr. Boom is a great learning tool for those of us who originally thought that large caliber arty isn't worth the price due to the low ammo amounts. It changed my mind.

[gredeker]

Originally posted by Smiler:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by CMplayer:

You obviously haven't played 'Mr Boom'.

heheheh. I've played both Mr. Boom and another variation involving a horde of 105mm Priests, a German battalion, and very little cover. I have to be honest though, when I saw all of the inf desparately trying to take cover in the single square of brush in the area, I felt so bad I had to surrender. No joke.

But I think Mr. Boom is a great learning tool for those of us who originally thought that large caliber arty isn't worth the price due to the low ammo amounts. It changed my mind.</font>

[Col Deadmarsh]

Originally posted by Offwhite:

This is potentially confusing, as there are two concepts being discussed at once. With on-board mortars there are two ways to fire out of LOS:

1. While in command of a HQ unit that can see the target you're firing at. In this case, both the mortar and the HQ are free to move wherever they like before and after the mortar fires (except, IIRC, mortars can't fire from inside a building).[/QB]

I'm confused as to what you guys are talking about. A mortar has indirect fire on a target by a HQ unit that DOES have LOS.

Now...what's all this business about moving after firing? Are you saying the mortar can fire, move away, and fire from a different position without having the HQ spot for them again?

[Mattias]

Originally posted by Offwhite:

lol.. I will most certainly make use of the information

It was mentioned here that the TRP benefit was lost with moving. I must have connected the two as they were implemented at the same time...

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Colonel,

Only that a mortar can fire at targets spotted by a HQ, move and then fire again in the same manner. I was under the impression that a mortar had to remain stationary throughout the game to be able to fire directed by a HQ

--

M.

[Silvio Manuel]

Originally posted by Colonel_Deadmarsh:

Now...what's all this business about moving after firing? Are you saying the mortar can fire, move away, and fire from a different position without having the HQ spot for them again?

The 'moving after firing' bit only applies when you're firing at a TRP. If the mortar doesn't have LOS to the TRP, it can only fire at it if it hasn't moved since the start of the battle. If you move, it you'll have to either get LOS w/ the mortar, or have an HQ handy who does.

Regarding Mr. Boom: I've done that, but never w/ a whole Bn as fodder, what fun! The Priest vs. Germans in no cover is especially cruel!

Another one I've done, while no where near as destructive, is test to see exactly how long it will take for an 81mm offmap smoke screen to materialize, so that I could maneuver a Rifle Pn ASAP, but not get caught before the smoke formed up.

[Conscript Bagger]

LOL - Smiler, your post was the highlight of my day and fodder for a new sigline.

[Smiler]

Originally posted by Offwhite:

LOL - Smiler, your post was the highlight of my day and fodder for a new sigline.

It's a fitting tribute to those poor German soldiers who suffered much for the experience.

Sadly, for their comrades, all of this talk about arty has piqued my curiosity again. Mr. Boom II will probably be run tonight.