Medal of Honour or Iron Cross

[SuperSulo]

I played a scenario some time ago (don't remember which one), and one half-squad (5 veteran guys) did remarkably well. After the battle was over, they had 27 confirmed kills, and was down to 1 man (they got shot up by a Sherman late in the game). I don't know about you, but I think they deserve a medal!

Maybe some day in the future (CM2?), soldiers who has performed exceptionelly well could be awarded in the AAR. Completly useless, I know, but it would be a fun thing.

[Hensworth]

I always check the kill stats of every unit after the battle. Always curious to see who's done best.

[Pvt. Ryan]

Print out these images, cut out the medals, and tape them to your monitor when you feel a particular soldier is deserving:

[Panzer_Meyer]

LOL

sounds good

[Michael Dorosh]

The wrong Iron Cross.

See my GD site (link below) for some rules currently in development for CMBB which will incorporate medals and awards. You are free to use the graphics on my site to award to your cyber troopies.

[Brian]

Shouldn't the title of the thread read, "Medal of Honour,Iron Cross or Victoria Cross"?

Anyway, here's a picture to add to the others:

[Michael Dorosh]

Originally posted by Brian:

Shouldn't the title of the thread read, "Medal of Honour,Iron Cross or Victoria Cross"?

Anyway, here's a picture to add to the others:

Really, though, "Honour" is misspelled - the Americans spell it "Honor" and since it is an American award....

[Jagdratt]

Originally posted by Michael Dorosh:

Really, though, "Honour" is misspelled - the Americans spell it "Honor" and since it is an American award....[/QB]

That's true if you're writing in American. I think he was using English, though.

[Herr Kruger]

Hehe... be careful up there on the ruff!

[mchlstrt]

Does anyone have any links to pics of WW I Germen gear, or know what insignia might be found on a bag or such? (Slightly OT but I saw my chance with this crowd...)

meaning more than one German, yeah, that's what I meant...

[ May 02, 2002, 01:29 AM: Message edited by: mchlstrt ]

[Brian]

Originally posted by Michael Dorosh:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Brian:

Shouldn't the title of the thread read, "Medal of Honour,Iron Cross or Victoria Cross"?

Anyway, here's a picture to add to the others:

Really, though, "Honour" is misspelled - the Americans spell it "Honor" and since it is an American award....</font>

[edward_n_kelly]

And another thing - if some are going to nit pick shouldn't it really be the Knight's Cross (in its various grades) ? I believe its offical title ran along the lines of Knight's Cross of the Iron Cross

(Or even more correctly the Ritterkreuz des Eisernes Kreuzes ie http://www.feldgrau.com/rk.html)

Edward

John 11:35

[Herr Kruger]

According to my info the Knight's Cross (in it's various grades) is a subset of the Iron Cross. Hitler reinstated the order in 1939, in which it had four grades : Iron Cross, 2nd Class; Iron Cross, 1st Class; Knight's Cross; and Grand Cross thus the full name of the Knight's Cross would be Knight's Cross of the Iron Cross indicating it is a subset of the Order of the Iron Cross.

[ May 02, 2002, 03:49 AM: Message edited by: Herr Kruger ]

[Ozzy]

A Ritterkreuz (Knight's Cross) was available to many Orders (e.g. Iron Cross, War Merit Cross), though the term Ritterkreuz is commonly used for the Ritterkreuz des Eisernen Kreuzes.

The Orden des Eisernen Kreuzes (Order of the Iron Cross) is one of the oldest and most traditional German Orders, it has be instituted in 19th century Prussian times and renewed several times since then.

In WWII there existed several levels of the Awards of the Order of the Iron Cross:

- Iron Cross 2nd Class 1914

- Iron Cross 1st Class 1914

- the 1914-1939 Iron Cross clasp

- Iron Cross 2nd Class 1939

- Iron Cross 1st Class 1939

- Knight's Cross of the Iron Cross

- Grand Cross of the Iron Cross

Over the scope of WWII, the need for more awards arose, and hence there have been introduced several "add-ons" to the KC of the IC, namely

- the Oak Leaves (Eichenlaub)

- Oak Leaves and Swords (Eichenlaub und Schwerter)

- Oak Leaves, Swords and Diamonds (Eichenlaub, Schwerter und Brillianten)

- Golden Oak Leaves, Swords and Diamonds (Goldenes Eichenlaub, Schwerter und Brillianten)

The latter was intented to be presented AFTER the war to the 12 best German soldiers (independent of rank and weapon branch), but it was presented once during the war and never again.

Göring was the only person ever to receive the Grand Cross of the Iron Cross.

The Order of the Iron Cross does no longer exist, as the Federal Republic of Germany after 1949 decided to show a rather unmilitary attitude. However, in recognition of the war merits, the German Parliament decided in 1957 to allow the wear of military and civil awards of the WWII era under two conditions:

- all Nazi symbol and emblems have to be removed from the award (i.e. the awards have been reproduced having a new appearance without swastika, SS-runes, etc.)

- Nazi or political awards are excluded.

So, the different awards of the Order of the Iron Cross can still be worn by their recipients in their 1957 appearance.

[Brian]

Interestingly enough, I knew an Australian Officer who insisted on wearing his Iron Cross 2nd Class ribbon on his uniform. Used to send the RSM into apoloxy, particulary on ceremonial parades when he actually wore the medal but it was a bit hard to argue with a man who'd served with the Hungarian Army in WWII, the Legion in Indochina afterwards and then done two tours of Vietnam as part of AATTV, including on one, recovering the body of his best mate, WO2 "Dasher" Wheatley who won a VC (posthumously) for refusing to leave his wounded AATV co-advisor when their CIDG unit was overrun. Felix Fazekas won an MM for his efforts to recover Wheatley. He was pretty impressive, even when I knew him towards the end of his career.

Oh, yes, the point of that piece of information? His was the pre-1957 version of the award. :eek:

[ May 02, 2002, 06:59 AM: Message edited by: Brian ]

[SGT_Gold]

Originally posted by Pvt. Ryan:

Print out these images, cut out the medals, and tape them to your monitor when you feel a particular soldier is deserving:

That's one old Medal of Honor, WW I at the latest.

Also, the ribbon above the medal is upside down. The stars form an 'M' when the ribbon is worn correctly.

[Pvt. Ryan]

People, get off my case. I found those pictures in a hurry. There is only so much searching I can do when I am wasting time at work.

[Michael Dorosh]

Originally posted by Brian:

Oh, yes, the point of that piece of information? His was the pre-1957 version of the award. :eek:

heehee - we had a French Foreign Legion type in our regiment here in Canada, he was Fallschrimjaeger before that and had the German Cross in Gold (not a subset of the Iron Cross - great info, by the way, Ozzy) but he never wore his German stuff with Canadian uniform. He actually sent his medals back in disgust after the war when he saw how Germany turned their back on their vets, or so that story went. Unlike Dietrich, I don't think he sent them back in a chamberpot....

[Bruno Weiss]

There is only so much searching I can do when I am wasting time at work.

You orta get a job with the guvment, then ya wouldn't have them problems.

[Ozzy]

Originally posted by Michael Dorosh:

heehee - we had a French Foreign Legion type in our regiment here in Canada, he was Fallschrimjaeger before that and had the German Cross in Gold (not a subset of the Iron Cross - great info, by the way, Ozzy) but he never wore his German stuff with Canadian uniform. He actually sent his medals back in disgust after the war when he saw how Germany turned their back on their vets, or so that story went. Unlike Dietrich, I don't think he sent them back in a chamberpot....

Ahh.... the Deutsche Kreuz, in appearance the most beautiful German award IMO. Also an order, namely the Kriegsorden des Deutschen Kreuzes War Order of the German Cross), it was instituted in 1941 as the necessity for more awards arose during the Operation Barbarossa. It came on two distinct versions, Silver and Gold, being independent from each other.

The Gold Cross has been presented for exceptional military bravery and tactical brilliance in face of the enemy. The Gold Cross was related (though NOT dependent) to the Iron Cross and usually, but not necessarily, was used to bridge the gap between the Knight Cross of the Iron Cross and the Iron Cross 1st Class. Thus the Iron Cross 1st Class was a prerequisite to receive the Golden Cross.

The Silver Cross was intented to reward significant performance in military and even civilian conduct of the war and was hence related to the Kriegsverdienstkreuz (War Merit Cross). Thus the War Merit Cross 1st Class was a prerequisite to receive the Silver Cross.

Though Gold seems to be more valuable (by name and metal), Silver was only presented 1115 times, while the Gold cross 24200 times.

Diamonds to the Crosses were planned as an additional level, but never instituted.

Interestingly, the relation to the different Orders (Iron Cross, War Merit Cross) can be found in the German 1957 version of the German Cross, as the huge swastika in the center has been replaced by an Iron Cross for the Gold version and a War Merit Cross for the Silver version.

Find much more at:

http://www.wehrmacht-awards.com/

As for the veterans: yes, until today there is not much appreciation for our (I am German)soldier veterans. Well, keeping in mind that Nazi Germany has been the aggressor and abused (yes, abused) her fine young men, who hence have not much they can be proud of, this might be understandable. There are not many veteran meetings or any military parade. All we have is the Volkstrauertag (People Mourning Day), on which we silently remember all those lifes lost and thank our now friends and neighbours in Europe and the world for their selfless efforts to free us from the tyranny.

We have other veterans instead: our Trümmerfrauen (rubble women), who have in absence of their dead or prisoned husbands, sons and fathers rebuild our cities, moving every piece of brick with their hands, without construction equipment and lacking of food and medical care in a completely ruined country. Maybe the truest heroes Germany has ever seen.

[ May 03, 2002, 05:51 AM: Message edited by: Ozzy ]

[Michael Dorosh]

What I find truly interesting was the the Germans approached awards (as they did everything else in their military) differently from the British, Americans or Canadians. The Iron Cross series of awards could be given for either bravery or merit. Ie - if your FlaK battery downed y number of planes bombers or knocked out x number of tanks, the battery commander could be given an award for that; the same award might go to an infantryman for knocking out an enemy machinegun position. If said infantryman already had the EK I, he would be recognized by either the Knight's Cross, or, if his deed was not felt sufficiently worthy of the Knight's Cross, perhaps the German Cross in Gold instead. If he did not already have the EK I, the same deed would fetch him the EK II.

So one soldier might receive an award for knocking out x number of tanks that an officer received for leading a successful battalion counterattack.

The Commonwealth had more specific awards, but they were far stingier with them. The Distinguished Service Order went to senior commanders (usually battalion COs) for merit, for example, while personal bravery was rewarded with the Military Cross or Victoria Cross or a Mention in Despatches (something the Germans seem not to have had an equivalent of - though they did have the Honour Roll of the German Army, which apparently really wasn't much of an Honour, though the insignia was indeed worn on a medal ribbon in the same fashion as the MiD). The CW also distinguished between medals for Other Ranks and officers - the MM and DCM were for other ranks only. National Socialist Germany truly bridged the gap between the classes in many ways, the award of all medals to all ranks being one of the more interesting ones.

Anyone know who the youngest ritterkreuzträger was? There were some pretty young looking specimens in the GD rolls, including a lowly Gefreiter.

[Ozzy]

I have no specific data on this, but íf I remember correctly, even Volksturm boys of not much more than 14 years were decorated with Ritterkreuzen during the defense of Berlin. There exists a film document in which Hitler presents these awards in front of the Reichskanzlei, showing an old and broken man knowing the defeat and his death are close.

[Ozzy]

Originally posted by Michael Dorosh:

National Socialist Germany truly bridged the gap between the classes in many ways, the award of all medals to all ranks being one of the more interesting ones.

Well, Nazis finished off with all social and cultural classes known before in Germany - and instituted new -ethnic- classes:

1) arian/germanic; the "Herrenrasse" (Leader Race)

2) caucasian/european (British, US, etc.)

3) french

4) jews (interesting: it is a religion, not a race, but it was considered such by Nazis)

5) african; "Wilde" (wild)

6) Russian; "Untermenschen" (below human)

Don't know if I should really like that...

****

In WWII, many of the old Prussian military traditions have been adopted by the Nazi regime - presumably to revoke gallantry and loyality among the soldiers, of which many (especially not Officers) did not agree with Nazi politics or warfare, especially not after the ruthless violations of the Eastern European countries.

[ May 03, 2002, 09:46 AM: Message edited by: Ozzy ]

[Michael Dorosh]

Originally posted by Ozzy:

I have no specific data on this, but íf I remember correctly, even Volksturm boys of not much more than 14 years were decorated with Ritterkreuzen during the defense of Berlin. There exists a film document in which Hitler presents these awards in front of the Reichskanzlei, showing an old and broken man knowing the defeat and his death are close.

I thought those were Second Class awards, but am open to correction.