Tank Techiques

[Sgt.Sanders fan]

I am always having problems taking out German Tanks. I usally play the Americans with my Shermans. I understand that in the real world it probably took four Shermans to take one Tiger. I must manuever my Shermans so that I am hitting the Tiger from the side or the rear correct?, otherwise from the front, there really is no way to penetrate that heavy armour. It really ticks me off when for instance;I was playing "A walk in Paris and lost 11 of my 13 Shermans plus all 3 M10 tank destroyers. I really am poor as a tank commander. H E L P !! :0

[This message has been edited by Sgt.Sanders fan (edited 08-01-2000).]

[MadDog0606]

Okay, I'll put my 2 cents in. This might help and it might not.

Whatever you do, don't use your tanks as scouts. Use a scout vehicle or infantry to find what's up ahead. Have them (infantry and scout vehicles) rush/move from cover to cover. Only have your tanks cover ground that have been scouted before hand. Never have your tanks mosy over open ground within sight of possible enemy units. If possible, always have your tanks rush from cover to cover (just like infantry). In the begining I lost a lot of tanks because I would use the Hunt command when traveling over open spaces. That's okay if you have a monster tank that can shrug off enemy shells, but a sherman can't do that.

Once you find the enemy armor (or any enemy units for that matter) engage them to keep them busy and then send the appropriate type of firepower to get a flank shot on them (mutiple flank shots if possible). If your battling againt a tank either send one of your tanks (with a squad riding along) or an infantry squad with a bazooka to get a side shot at the bugger. The zook is good if the enemy tank is sideon to within 100yrds of some woods and you have the time to place the bazooka where you want it.

You can also use smoke and infantry against an enemy tank. I've never done this, but here is the theory. Get some infantry close enough to the enemy tank (somewhere that the enemy tank has no line of sight, but within about 150yrds). Fire some smoke at the enemy tank. Rush your infantry at the tank so that they can take the tank out. I know that if infantry gets close enough to armor that the armor will be taken out because it has happened to me.

If all else fails, you can always do a tank rush. The Sherman tank has a faster turret traverse speed than German tanks. Send a lot of Sherman tanks (at high speed and different attack vectors) at the offending German tank. While the German tank is taking out one Sherman tank there is a high propability that one of the other Shermans' will take the German tank out.

Hope this helps you.

[This message has been edited by MadDog0606 (edited 08-01-2000).]

[This message has been edited by MadDog0606 (edited 08-01-2000).]

[Olle Petersson]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Sgt.Sanders fan:

... I understand that in the real world it probably took four Shermans to take one Tiger. ...<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Five is the number I've seen.

The theory is to surround the Tiger so that at least one Sherman will be able to make a flank shot before they're all knocked out.

I've found out that in terrain with limited LOS, as is fairly common, it usually ends up with one-on-one battles anyway. It is very difficult to get one single enemy tank into LOS of more than one of my tanks at a time. Ideally all of my ATGs/tanks/TDs should be able to pick out enemy AFVs one at a time...

Cheers

Olle

[MadDog0606]

I don't think it is that hard to get multiple LOS on an enemy tank.

I was playing a QB with moderate coverage of trees and small slopes. I was playing the Amis (so I didn't mosy along with my tanks). I moved the infantry platoons forward in bounds (moved one squad forward to cover, if not shot at then moved the other two and the HQ up). I had about 4 Shermans (1 Jumbo and 3 regular). I was comming up the right side of the map when suddenly from the left side a shot rings out and I lose a Sherman and a friggen Tiger tank is shown on the left side of the map. That damn Tiger shot between two clumps of trees. The little **** was in a good spot too. He was in a dip in the ground (hull down to me). Needless to say I rushed my Shermans out of his LOS. I noticed that there was a clump of trees on the very edge of the map to the Tigers south which had good LOS on him and places on the map that had dips in the ground that I could use to rush a tank to get a shot at him. I rushed the remaining 2 regular (75mm) Shermans off south of my position from cover to cover to get to those trees. I rushed them so that the Tiger could not track and get a shoot (the Tiger has very slow turret travers speed). That Tiger never got a shot at my fast moving Shermans. I watched him track them but he never shot at them. I had stoped moving forward with the Jumbo because that Tiger would have killed him because there was a lot of open space up forward. I kept the 2 Shermans hidden behind the clump of woods until I had that Jumbo in position on the safe side of another clump of woods. I figured I was going to lose somebody taking out the Tiger. I brought the Jumbo out of hiding to get the Tigers attention. I paused the movement of the 2 Shermans about 30 seconds then sent them out to get an angle shot at the Tiger that was engaged with the Jumbo. Well I got lucky and only lost one tank commander and the Tiger was only a Pz IV (FOW is a bitch) and he got toasted.

[This message has been edited by MadDog0606 (edited 08-02-2000).]

[This message has been edited by MadDog0606 (edited 08-02-2000).]

[jgdpzr]

One word of advice:

Hulldown

Particularly when setting up ambushes. Ambushes are wonderful force equaliziers, just remember, with Shermans your optimal ambush range versus armor is probably somewhere around 200 meters- far enough to stay out of effective range of infantry AT weapons yet close enough to give your gun a fighting chance. It is also best to try to setup ambushes on an oblique angle to the expected enemy approach. A wonderful trick to is to place a vehicle (or gun) on a reverse slope that has a good angle toward the flank of the likely enemy approach. Of course you'll want to support the position with infantry so your tank or gun won't be so vulnerable if the enemy crests the slope. A further consideration, albeit gamey, is that you might want to consider deploying in this fashion near the map edge so that you have fewer flanks to worry about. With 75MM armed Shermans, firing into the flanks of a heavy panzer is your ONLY chance. The 76MM may have some success against the front armor of the heavies (particularly vs. the Tiger IE or if you have tungsten in your loadout) at closer ranges (below 500 meters) but I wouldn't want to make my living doing that.

If you are in no position to ambush, such as when on the attack, you must marshall all of your advantages carefully (high speed of turret traverse, gyro, strength in numbers, smoke, terrain, speed of your vehicles vs. the turret traverse speed of the heavies or lack of turret in the case of German TDs, etc.) when attacking German units supported by heavies. As Patton said(paraphrasing) "grab 'em by the nose and kick 'em in the rear." In other words, get close, fast, and on his flanks. But don't do this in a haphazard fashion. Gather your forces in full defilade, take a turn or two to fully deploy smoke or HE for suppression, recon as much as possible to locate his infantry or any asset that could pose a threat to your rush, go to view 1 and literally stroll down your anticipated path(s) to find good firing positions (places that allow you to go hull down versus your primary target while limiting your flank exposure are optimal)then swing into action with most everything you have (I usually like to keep something in reserve, but sometimes you just don't have that luxury), sending your vehicles to your prescouted firing positions. Concentration of firepower is key with Shermans, so keep your spacing moderately close (I prefer to keep them within 25-50 meters of each other in most situations).

Now, some battles are better than others as far as tank country goes. For example, a Walk in Paris is horrible tank ground, obviously. Urban areas coupled with tight time frames usually equal high armor losses. I know I lost several in that battle as well, and it was literally not until the last turn when I close assaulted the last Panther did I have control of the field.

You'll get better with practice.

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"Sometimes you eat the bar and sometimes the bar eats you. Take it easy, Dude." -- The Stranger

The Dude abides.

[demoss]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by MadDog0606:

I don't think it is that hard to get multiple LOS on an enemy tank.

I was playing a QB with moderate coverage of trees and small slopes. I was playing the Amis (so I didn't mosy along with my tanks). I moved the infantry platoons forward in bounds (moved one squad forward to cover, if not shot at then moved the other two and the HQ up). I had about 4 Shermans (1 Jumbo and 3 regular). I was comming up the right side of the map when suddenly from the left side a shot rings out and I lose a Sherman and a friggen Tiger tank is shown on the left side of the map. That damn Tiger shot between two clumps of trees. The little **** was in a good spot too. He was in a dip in the ground (hull down to me). Needless to say I rushed my Shermans out of his LOS. I noticed that there was a clump of trees on the very edge of the map to the Tigers south which had good LOS on him and places on the map that had dips in the ground that I could use to rush a tank to get a shot at him. I rushed the remaining 2 regular (75mm) Shermans off south of my position from cover to cover to get to those trees. I rushed them so that the Tiger could not track and get a shoot (the Tiger has very slow turret travers speed). That Tiger never got a shot at my fast moving Shermans. I watched him track them but he never shot at them. I had stoped moving forward with the Jumbo because that Tiger would have killed him because there was a lot of open space up forward. I kept the 2 Shermans hidden behind the clump of woods until I had that Jumbo in position on the safe side of another clump of woods. I figured I was going to lose somebody taking out the Tiger. I brought the Jumbo out of hiding to get the Tigers attention. I paused the movement of the 2 Shermans about 30 seconds then sent them out to get an angle shot at the Tiger that was engaged with the Jumbo. Well I got lucky and only lost one tank commander and the Tiger was only a Pz IV (FOW is a bitch) and he got toasted.

[This message has been edited by MadDog0606 (edited 08-02-2000).]

[This message has been edited by MadDog0606 (edited 08-02-2000).]<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Two things to point out. First, the LOS depends a lot on the map (of course) - there are maps that look like just one chokepoint after another.

Second, your Jumbo would likely have lasted quite a while against the Tiger as long as you kept the front pointed toward the Tiger. The Tiger I's punch is good but not great, and the Jumbo has very good frontal armor (don't recall the numbers, but I'd bet heavily on a Jumbo 76 versus a Tiger I head-to-head). A Sherman Jumbo is a "safe side" on tracks unless the really big boys are around (King Tiger or, to a lesser extent, Panther). Jumbos belong in the lead, pointed right at any known threat - especially when it's a "Tiger?" which may well be a lowly Pz IV that doesn't have a snowball's chance in hell against the front armor.

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-Doug

[MadDog0606]

I didn't want to test a one-on-one against the possible Tiger with my Jumbo. That was the only Jumbo I had and I was still a long way from the victory flags. I'm not sure if a Nashorn has the same gun as a Tiger, but I've had a Jumbo taken out by a Nashorn before from 800 yrds.

I also needed to practice how to use Sherman tanks. I had always thought Shermans sucked until I saw what the AI tried to do in an operation with one. During a turn in the operation I had one of my Stug III goose a Sherman toward two Panthers. I thought the Sherman would oblige me and move into the Panther headlights and take his medicine. The AI suprised me. The AI rushed that Sherman right between my two Panthers (they were on opposite sides of a road) and was about to shoot the ass off of one of them using that fast traverse speed of the Sherman (my eyes got so wide ) when luck came my way and he missed and the other Panther took that Sherman out. I played that turn back three or four times just to admire what the Sherman tried to do.

I'm learning that all tanks are not the same. I'm learning how to maximize a tanks strength; Sherman speed over ground and it's turret traverse speed, a Tiger and Panthers long range hitting power. How to minimize their weaknesses; don't duel long range using a Sherman 75mm against a Tiger or Panther, remember to not expose Shermans to possible flank shots, remember the slow traverse speed of the Tiger and Panther. I'll discover other things as I play this game. I really don't look at this as a game, I look at it has a learning experience (yeah, that's what I'll tell my boss the next time he catches me playing CM). I'm learning new things every time I play this game. Of course, the things I'm learning propably wont help me during my next review period.

I'm learning that you don't use tanks in the open, you don't mosey along with anything, and how to use smoke properly (I still haven't gotten the hang of the smoke).

[IntelWeenie]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by MadDog0606:

I'm not sure if a Nashorn has the same gun as a Tiger, but I've had a Jumbo taken out by a Nashorn before from 800 yrds.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Nope, the Nashorn has a much more powerful 88mm than the Tiger I's 88mm. I forget the actual designations right now, but the Nashorn gun is nearly identical to the one used on the King Tiger.

Sgt Sanders fan: adding my 2 bits, I'll remind you of the saying "only fools rush in". Speed is essential for most allied tanks' survival, but don't confuse that with your tempo of operations. What do I mean by that? Don't rush your tanks all over so much or so fast that you end up leaving your infantry or other AFV support too far behind/in a position where they can't help you. In open country it's usually better to lead with the tanks, but in built-up or heavily forested terrain, it's suicide.

Lastly, use your numbers to engage simultaneously from many directions. I often try this by engaging from far to one flank to entice the German tank to swing his (slow as molasses) turret that way. While that's going on, his buddies quickly pop up from the other flank and nail him before he can get a shot at the first tank (or so goes the theory ) Failing that, the first tank pops back down and the German tries to engage the flankers. That's when the first tank becomes the flanker...Try it out in some QB games (buy both sides, but give the Germans weaker tanks so you can polish your technique. It isn't 'fair', but it's a decent way to learn fire and manuever).

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"Belly to belly and everything's better" - Russian proverb

[Fionn]

The Nashorn's gun IS the same as that used on the King Tger ( an 88 L71).. The one used on the Tiger is only an 88 L56.

[Guest Michael emrys]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by MadDog0606:

I'm learning that all tanks are not the same. I'm learning how to maximize a tanks strength; Sherman speed over ground and it's turret traverse speed...<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Another nice thing about the Sherman is its humongous ammo load. That makes it near-ideal as a mobile support weapon.

Michael

[Iron Duke]

Hello,

one tactic tankers have used for years is commonly known as "lowsky" and "tophat" in the US Army. It is simply going from full deflaide to a hull-down position. Being an ex-tanker myself (3rd Armor Div, M1A1/1st AR M1E1) I use this tactic quite a bit in CM ESPECIALLY against German heavy armor. The way to do it is: If you have your tank(s) behind a hill or whatnot, during your orders phase, order him to Hunt forward (where you know he will be able to engage, but not be totally "out in the open", then reverse back down, and Hunt again, etc... usually, depending on the terrain and the vehicle, a sherman can do this 2 to 3 times, and make sure to end up in a reverse command so that he is lowsky at the end of the turn. You can even coordinate it so that one tank goes first then when he is reversing the next one is going into tophat, you will be surprised how much longer your tanks survive a shootout with the Germans. Yes, sometimes you will miss out on an opportunity because your tank will lowsky when he has a shot, but better to live a while longer and wait for another opportunity to present itself. Note that this same tactic works if you are "peeking" around a wooded area, but not near as well. Anyway, thats all the "tricks" Ill give you today...incase I ever have to destroy you in PBEM. j/k

Later,

[This message has been edited by Iron Duke (edited 08-03-2000).]

[Guest Michael emrys]

That's sneaky!

I like it.

Michael

[Henri]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Sgt.Sanders fan:

I am always having problems taking out German Tanks. I usally play the Americans with my Shermans.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

You got a lot of good advice, here is a bit more.

Tanks are not good at city fighting; in cities, infantry has the edge. NEVER send tanks into a town without infantry unless you KNOW that there is no nearby enemy infantry.If there is enemyinfantry, your own infantry should lead the way, supported by the armor.Artillery and smoke might be necessary if the enemy is numerous.

Tigers are good, but they are not invulnerable. Depending on which Sherman you have, you could or could not stand up to a Tiger. I have had Tigers killed on the first frontal shot from a Sherman firefly. The Jumbo is an equal match to a Tiger: in one case, my Tiger and a Jumbo bounced a half dozen shells off each other before one was killed.

Most newbies don't realize that the gun of the Panther is more deadly at long range than the 88 of a Tiger Avoid engaging Panthers at long range with ANY allied tank, you will almost always lose.

If you have the chance for a hull-down position, the trick is to "hunt" to the top of the hill, ending with a "hide" command; the tank should position itself in a hull-down position.

Although it is not a bad idea to spread out your armor in order to catch the enemy tanks on the flanks, be aware that this could lead to situations where your tanks will enter the battle piecemeal and be taken out by ones and twos. I speak from experience . always remember that the one who can concentrate more firepower will usually kill the enemy (assuming that the firepower available is suitable for the job -attacking two tanks with five halftracks is not what I consider concentration of fire . Coordinating flank attacks requires good timing.

Here is some priceless info: newbies (and sometimes the AI) tend to be impatient and are rattled by unresolved situations. Sometimes just waiting will cause the enemy to make a serious mistake. You gotta know when to be bold and you gotta know when to fold

Although having a good field of fire is important, remember that it also gives the enemy many directinos fromwhich to shoot. when on the defensive, it is usually better to have your tanks concealed with good narrow interlocking fields of fire through probable areas of enemy advance. Then if you are lucky, you can pick off his armor one at a time. A good example is to have a tank in the woods beyond a curve in a road; as enemy tanks rumble around the curve, your tank can pick them off one at a time. I once destroyed 8 enemy tanks in a row this way .

Henri

[Blue Macs]

I love the 'lowsky and tophat' thing, that is very cool. i have tried a similar thing by hunting from behind a building a few metres out to get a shot off then have him reverse before the end of the turn. lowsky is sort of a combination of this and the manuals suggestion for getting hull down, ie hunting from behind a rise with a target selected so your tank engages while mostly behind the rise.

Another thing that has worked for me, it seems sensible but i'm not sure if it would count as gamey or whether people actually did it, is to use the Churchill VII and the Firefly together. The C VII engages first from the front and ties up the enemy, this pup can stand up to pretty much anything the germans can throw at him, then the Firefly with his 17 pounder can move up on the distracted enemy from anther position (or even from front on with his gun) and take out the bad guy

thats my idea anyway, hope it helps, and dont use it against me in a pbem

BM

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"If you see a white plane it's American, if you see a black plane it's the RAF. If you see no plane at all it's the Luftwaffe." -German soldier, Western Front, 1944

[chrisl]

I've started using the "lowsky/tophat" thing since you posted it, and it's great. Especially if you have a nice hill with a bunch of Shermans behind it. You can time them all so that they pop up at different times and unpredictable places, so the enemy always has to rotate the turret to get to you.

And then by the time it's rotated, you're gone...

I've only had much chance to use it against the AI, though, so I haven't had a really good test against a sneaky human.

[Popper]

I had a situation in the Villers Bocage scenario (I was the pitiful Brits) where I was left trying to take out the last tiger with not a whole lot of stuff left. The advantages I had were that it was buttoned, I had lots of useless infantry to bleed for him, and two Stuarts along the road.

The tiger was just off the crossroads and was firing on the occupants of the house.

My solution was to smoke the hell out of the area and bum rushed along the road at full tilt. A Stuart going at full on a road is an impressive sight. This was especially important considering that the crews were green and unlikely to stick around after the first shots.

The tiger couldn't traverse fast enough and reversing onto the road actually resulted in it bumping into one of the Stu's. I thought I'd drop a gold brick (or at least the crew would).

Both Stuarts got off two shots a piece before the tiger even got it's nose around. The fourth one brewed it up and I went to the bathroom to change my shorts.

[Chuckd]

From my decidedly shallow pool of knowledge, here comes something that I found works well. Some of the guys have already said it so its not news, but here goes.

Bum rush from cover. As fast as you can.

For example: In a custom scenario I built, I had an immobilized veteran panther wreaking havoc with my shermans and M18's. It was guarding the entrance to a neighborhood which contained a victory flag. Three burning shermans attested to this crew's prowess as a fighting unit.

So, I took one of my m18's and darted in between buildings, gradually working my way closer and closer to the crackshot roadblock. At the same time though, I never strayed into the panther's LOS long enough to allow him a shot.

Finally, at just the right moment, I ordered my m18 around the behemoth's backside at full speed, spun it around and plinked the troublesome cat in one shot. With that the path was open and victory was mine.

Don't underestimate the power of the bum rush. It can work very well if done right. It can burn you bad if done incorrectly.

For Example: In a last ditch, desperation move I rushed a sherman (jumbo no less) with stugIII. (hey, I had no other option!) He got toasted before he even knew what hit him. Oh well. Live and learn.

Chuckd

[RudeLover]

Though I'm not in any position to offer much advice about tactics, several posts bring up a point (Chuckd talking about 'bum rush' brings back memories, btw) that I'm still learning.

Know the strengths and weaknesses of your units. The shoot-n-scoot strategy is what the M-18 was designed to do. It's extremely speedy with a decent, turreted, gun but very little armor, best suited for dashing from cover to cover, popping out for a flank shot. (Be careful darting through unknown territory, though, as 'fausts will burn.) Sherman has some of these features, as well, with a weaker gun but a very fast turret. The StuG, on the other hand, with no turret but a good gun,is an ambusher. See also Hetzer, etc.

IMO, learning the strengths and weaknesses of the various units and the appropriate tactics for each is one of coolest things about this game... If you want to go deeper, since the units have the strengths and weaknesses of their real-life counterparts, you can learn something about the suitability of, say, US Tank vs. Tank Destroyer doctrine.

[Get Some]

Don't underestimate your infratry against German tanks. CM clearly illustrates how superior the German Armor is against the US Armor. Keep your Shermans way back with good cover (hills or buildings) while sneaking your platoons forward in an effort to get close the the German tanks. Last night while sneaking my troops through the woods in the center of the map the AI sent a tank destroyer up my right flank and spotted my 3 Shermans behind the woods, he took out 2 and immobilized the other before the immobilized Sherman got him. I thought I was done with no armor and at least two Panzer's in the village ahead. I ran one platoon out of the woods to the building on the right with a Panzer behind it and the other platoon to the left into another building. The platoon on the right didn't have a single panzerfaust and knocked it out with grenades then shot the crew. I ran one squad from the platoon on the left into a closer building to the other Panzer leaving the other squad behind in a building but with LOS on the last panzer. They knocked out a track with a faust then blew it up into flames with grenades. The next turn I had them rush into the building the crew crawed in and stomped them. Axis surrendered, I got a major victory and did it with no tanks.

[Buckeye]

Hey RudeLover, I'm a little confused. The Amis don't have fausts...do you mean rifle grenades, or zooks?

Just joshing you.

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"Don't lie to me, Gustav! You're a stinkin' Mac user!"

[Gunsmithcat]

Very good point about infantry tactics against tanks. I have been amazed how many people subconciously think Infantry stands no chance against armor. Quite the contrary is true, particularly if attacking from a hidden position or from above in terrain or buildings. The big caveat is whether or not the tank has any infantry support, which for some reason players tend to forget. Your force is an integrated unit; separation of units so that they can't support each other is the number one problem plagueing players of most wargames.

[Get Some]

Jumbo Sherman or regular Sherman they just don't stack up to german tanks. I had a Jumbo Sherman go toe to toe with a Tiger last night, both directly facing each other with that strong frontal armor. They clanked shells off each others front turrets for about 4-5 shots each and then the Tiger knocked out the Jumbo Sherman. Of course the next turn I snuck two Shermans around the small hill the Tiger was behind and attacked him from his rear flank with both tanks at the same time and disposed of him quickly. Don't take those German tanks on from the front, I don't care what kind of US tank you've got. Americans can't make a good car and it shows in our tanks!

[IntelWeenie]

Tungsten ammo (t3, t1, etc.) is key for US tanks to take out the heavier German stuff head on. Only problem is it's scarcity and the fact that the AI will choose when to use it (not always the same time you want it used).

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Canada: Where men were men, unless they were horses.

-Dudley Do-right

[Panzer Man]

If you are out of their LOS and they appear boxed in,,use smoke and get into a better firing position.