Drowsy tankers

[patolino]

I had a crack StuG (or sturmi in Finnish) waiting for prey coming along a road, in good cover, forest on both sides of about 30 deg sector to which it was aiming. Foggy conditions, visibility 200 m.

When a T-34 rumbled along, it managed to shoot twice (fortunately both misses) before my crack StuG noticed there was a shooting war going on. I was pretty upset, and the neighbours may have heard my "Kuka saatanan puusilmä nukkuu etulinjassa?". That must have woken up the little pixel soldiers, though, as the StuG gunner proceeded to perforate the T-34 turret -- though after a delay which seemed like eternity. The T-34 (was later identified as /85) must have missed my tin can 5 times or so, fortunately the StuG missed only once (from 190 m, immobile position, T-34 practically in front of it :mad: )

What gives? Fit soldiers, mid day, tho with unnaturally heavy fog, wakey wakey! No time to sleep now!

(p.s. I understand the need for nationality-free audible designation of the opponent for the other nations of the game, but since we Finns have just one enemy couldn't the virtual soldiers just call him "Vanja"? "Vihollinen" this, "vihollinen" that, who has time to pronounce all those letters in the middle of a battle? )

[Sytass]

Heavy fog, you say? That may be it. Crews sometimes have trouble even on a bright day. When a shell hits your tank, or makes a near miss, you don't always see where it came from. So you'll often button up (reducing sight even more) and scan around. In thck fog it's even more difficult, and eventually, you might see a gun flash, look closer and - voilà, there's a shadow in the fog - "T-34?". Then your StuG maybe has to adjust position as it as no turret to turn... that all takes its time.

[AnonymousOxide]

I believe StuG's have long range optics, so that could be it. LRO's aren't good at close distance shooting, and the darker it is, the poorer the optics perform. Correct me if I'm wrong.

And yes, the fog would have something to do with it I imagine.

[Kwazydog]

Also, earlier models of the stug have no cupola, so if they were buttoned they would have had a very hard time spotting anything.

Dan

[Michael Emrys]

The interesting thing to me though is that the T-34 spotted the StuG first, even though the Stug was lying in wait and the tank was traveling (and presumably making a lot of noise).

Michael

[WineCape]

Michael,

I've noticed on several occasions in CMBO too that this is the case, where a moving AFV (in hunt mode) will spot the ambushing, non moving enemy AFV earlier - albeit only a second or two. In several CMBO games I've played the unbuttoned, non moving, ambushing AFV had a higher crew quality than the unbuttoned moving enemy AFV.

Assuming that higher quality crews are supposedly better spotters than lower quality crews, more so if their AFV's are not moving + facing the enemy's line of approach with their AFV's, how does this hold water?

Regards,

Charl Theron

[ October 09, 2002, 06:49 AM: Message edited by: WineCape ]

[Michael Emrys]

Originally posted by WineCape:

Michael,

I've noticed on several occasions in CMBO too that this is the case, where an moving AFV (in hunt mode) will spot the ambushing, non moving enemy AFV earlier - albeit only a second or two. In several CMBO games I've played the unbuttoned, non moving, ambushing AFV had a higher crew quality than the unbuttoned moving enemy AFV.

Assuming that higher quality crews are supposedly better spotters than lower quality crews, more so if their AFV's are not moving + facing the enemy's line of approach with their AFV's, how does this hold water?

Well, since you ask , my guess would be that the program adds up all the probabilities and rolls a die. What we are seeing here is a very unlikely event nevertheless happening. It may also be the case that some of the probabilities could use recalculating. My own take is that an AFV lying in ambush (with possibly some hasty camouflage), with its crew alert and engine presumably idling or even switched off, when confronted with an AFV that is traveling along making a lot of racket and presumably not particularly expecting anything, should have the odds heavily in its favor.

JMO.

Michael

[ October 09, 2002, 06:16 AM: Message edited by: Michael emrys ]

[Michael Dorosh]

Originally posted by Michael emrys:

The interesting thing to me though is that the T-34 spotted the StuG first, even though the Stug was lying in wait and the tank was traveling (and presumably making a lot of noise).

Michael

Don't you think the idling StuG engine would be loud - especially in the confines of the vehicle when buttoned up?

[Michael Emrys]

Originally posted by Michael Dorosh:

Don't you think the idling StuG engine would be loud - especially in the confines of the vehicle when buttoned up?

No, not nearly compared to the noise that a tank in motion makes. Besides, who says that they are buttoned up? If I were running an ambush, I would be doing everything I could to increase my situational awareness, including having someone on foot a hundred meters or so up the road if I could.

Michael

[MikeyD]

I had my own Stug experiences last night. 4th game of a 7 battle operation. I had 3 Stugs under cover in Brush with a veritable horde of T34s in the open on the horizon. Regular tankers, long range optics firing at 1000m, and the Stugs couldn't hit the broad side of a barn! One Stug completely depleted its AP without a single kill. My guys weren't just drowsey, they must'a been drunk!

[WWB]

Originally posted by MikeyD:

I had my own Stug experiences last night. 4th game of a 7 battle operation. I had 3 Stugs under cover in Brush with a veritable horde of T34s in the open on the horizon. Regular tankers, long range optics firing at 1000m, and the Stugs couldn't hit the broad side of a barn! One Stug completely depleted its AP without a single kill. My guys weren't just drowsey, they must'a been drunk!

I think I know which op you speak of. Yes, the stugs were as drunk as I was when I designed it.

The thing you see is the one instance of true relative spotting in CM: the 60 second movie when units are first spotted. In that short timeframe, there are rolls made to see if the unit can acquire the target itself, even if another unit has it spotted clear as day. Which is why unbottoned tanks are such an advantage in those situations.

WWB

[Andrew H.]

Originally posted by Michael emrys:

The interesting thing to me though is that the T-34 spotted the StuG first, even though the Stug was lying in wait and the tank was traveling (and presumably making a lot of noise).

Michael

I wonder if this is a borg spotting issue - i.e., perhaps another unit had already spotted the StuG, possibly unbeknownst to the StuG. So instead of the situation being that a StuG was in ambush waiting for an innocent victim to trundle down the road in front of it, the situation was that a T-34 was trying to get LOS to a StuG that was unaware of the T-34's presence.

A T-34 full of tank gunner rejects, it appears...

[Michael Emrys]

Originally posted by Andrew Hedges:

I wonder if this is a borg spotting issue - i.e., perhaps another unit had already spotted the StuG, possibly unbeknownst to the StuG.

Interesting possibility. We'll have to throw this back to patolino to tell us if he thinks this possible.

Michael

[TSword]

Michael,

A StuG in idle is quiet in relation to a T-34 which is extremely loud while rattling and clanking around, much louder then a StuG, Panther or the like, and certainly the T-34 TC hears nothing else then his own tank's noise.

If the Stug was buttoned then the unbuttoned T-34 has a good chance of spotting first, if not i would rate it as bad luck too.

Greets

Daniel

[patolino]

Originally posted by Michael emrys:

Interesting possibility. We'll have to throw this back to patolino to tell us if he thinks this possible.

Michael

The computer had 2 T-34's and a BA-64 on my right flank (and all its infantry on my left); it is possible that the other one had seen the stug, but probably impossible to tell for sure (did not make savegames).

My stug crew was unbuttoned at the time lumps of hot metal came flying past (since the beginning of the qb). As far as I remeber, it did not have to turn the chassis of the tank to start shooting, just to swivel the gun a few degrees. Well, I guess it's just one of those things... as I managed to knock out both of the tanks (the other one with a pak) and the red infantry (about a company worth) advanced directly into my smg squad ambush across an open field using a lane perhaps 50 m wide, making the end score 99-01, I don't have sooo big an issue to complain about wrt lazy tankers

btw, I had not set a trp. That probably would help hitting from an ambush with the first shell...

[edited because I forgot to mention the armoured car first time]

[ October 09, 2002, 02:59 PM: Message edited by: patolino ]