Next Combat Mission game

[energy76]

Originally posted by mattman2000:

Aaarggh. I can't remember his name, but there was a British General who basically moppped North Africa with the Italians during the early days of that theater. Then he got yanked by his superiors.

I had read that O'Connor was captured. Grog help?

[Michael Emrys]

Originally posted by mattman2000:

Aaarggh. I can't remember his name, but there was a British General who basically moppped North Africa with the Italians during the early days of that theater. Then he got yanked by his superiors. I have a book about it wherein the author states the general was undeniably brilliant, won victory after victory for the Allies, only to see his career go down the pooper. I read the thing about 18 months ago, and it's been sitting in a box for the past eight weeks or so (we just moved).

Anyway, it made for a fascinating read (especially when you realize just how initially unprepared either side was to fight in such terrain). I think it would be a great game.

Could the book you are thinking of just by chance be Wavell by John Connell? I just finished it yesterday.

Michael

[Michael Emrys]

Originally posted by energy76:

For those of you still not convinced, I recommend reading up on it a little and finding out how fascinating it was.

I massively agree. I have an entire shelf or two of books devoted to one aspect of the campaign or another, and if I live long enough I intend to add another.

Michael

[akdavis]

Originally posted by JonS:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Michael emrys:

Plus three more or less complete TO&E organisations for the British armoured division. Don't forget the Vichy French, the Free French, the Iraqis, the Iranis, the Greeks, the Poles, the Czechs, the Australians, the New Zealanders, the South Africans, East and West Africans, and Indians.

... and the Jewish Brigade; German, Italian, British and US paras; rangers; commandos; Brazilians; several TOEs for the Free French; French Colonial forces; Italian Colonail Forces; SS; The HG Parachute Pnzr Div; Alpini, Alpine, and Gebirgsjagers; a Negro US Div; etc.

Truly, far more varied than NWE.</font>

[Zakalwe]

Originally posted by Colonel_Deadmarsh:

This also brings up another question, how are they intending to sell this next CM? After all, North Africa is not a popular theatre and most people didn't even know there was a Mediterranean theatre. So who will buy it outside of the wargaming grog community? I guess they will have to be content with marketing to a smaller niche than their previous games.

Well, North Africa has always been a mainstay of wargaming. In fact, there has never been a shortage of NA wargames (either computer or board) during the history of wargaming, so somebody has to buy them, right? I'm no übergrog , and yet there are half-a-dozen NA games on my shelves.

In a way it will be a sort of homecoming for wargaming when the CM series hits the sands of Africa. Hal Hock's boardgame Tobruk can be seen as the ancestor of CM in the way it treated armoured combat...

Zak

[Panzer Leader]

I heartily reccomend "The Rommel Papers" which are a group of letters, diary entries, papers, etc. about the campaign.

Also, BH Liddel Hart wrote a book "History of WW2" that seems to focus in great detail on Africa. Truly fascinating stuff, and for germanophiles, there is a plethora of "could've beens" and "If only's" to boot.

Africa, though small in the epic importance of the war, is still one of the most engrossing.

Also, von Luck's "Panzer Commander" has an amazing section that deals with Africa fighting the LRDG.

[JonS]

O'Connor did a superb job in the first desert offensive, starting in December 1940, facing overwhelming forces. It was eventually halted two months and 500 miles later due to British decisions rather than Italian resistance.

If (and its a big 'if') the British had been able to find the forces and support to continue, they may (an equally big 'may') have been able to drive the Axis out of NA in 1941.

But, the forces and equipment that were available were exhausted, and significant forces were diverted to Greece, as it was felt motre important to defend against the Germans there than attack the Italians in Lybia.

O'Connor was captured during Rommels first counter-offensive, and so missed most of the middle part of the war. He eventually made his way back to the British Army (released or recaptured?), and was given command of a Corps in Normandy.

He goosed that second chance badly, and was relieved of command. The general assumption is that while in captivity he wasn't able to keep up with the developments in warfare, and so was unprepared for the scale of the fighting in 21st Army Group. (In 1940/41 his total forces were little more than an understrngth infantry division - 4th Indian, subsequently replaced by an Aussi div - and an armoured division - 7th Armoured.)

Regards

JonS

[ November 12, 2002, 04:01 PM: Message edited by: JonS ]

[Firefly]

Originally posted by JonS:

He eventually made his way back to the British Army (released or recaptured?),

Escaped IIRC.

[Tripps]

Originally posted by energy76:

Dude. North Africa was a 2 and a half to 3 year long campaign, longer the campaign in BO.

Yes i'm aware of the duration of the campaign, but you cannot compare apples with pears. I was trying to say too small a scale in regards to total resources committed to this theatre would maybe be to small to market a whole game by itself, I later went on to say N.A.+ entire Med makes more sense.

The British changed their primary tank three or four times. Plus you have to model the whole Italian army in all it's "glory." There was a lot of technology being developed in that timespan, so upgrades weren't unfrequent. I think you'd have as many units as anywhere else...but now I guess I'm just being nitpicky. Maybe I'm just over-eager to have people like the idea of CM in Africa.

Yeah I think you are I am for one eager to see N.A. as well, I just feel by itself if would not offer as much

not the sort of soft blowing Sahara type sand you need for dunes. Lot of rolling terrain and rocky outcroppings. Lots of flat terrain, too. Short, grassy, tough shrubbery spread out thinly over the desert surface.

Then once you get to Tunisia: Green and mountainous. Lots of trees and such.

I said put it into perspective with everything else I was saying!

I mentioned the Tunisian mountains, the flats, the quattra depression etc etc

I hope people get off this notion that i'm trying to say N.A. is all rolling sand dunes...

[qb]Afaik we'd need a new engine to do North Africa if you wanted M3A1's Lee/Grant with their hull-mounted 75mm gun.

Why? Are you sure about this?

AFAIK, there was a thread a while back with BTS saying they could not model the 2 main guns on the Grant.

cheers

[Fetchez la Vache]

Someone suggested the name Combat Mission: The Road to Rome. What about the 11 months of fighting after Rome was liberated?

We don't say that "All roads lead to Caserta" though.

[Tarquelne]

I'd love to see a China-Burma-India CM, esp. for Burma. Could be quite intense.

But, given the depth and quality of the previous games, I imagine BFC could have CM hang around Europe indefinetly and I'd keep buying the games.

Hmm... I should stop reading this thread. NA will be great, but I've got the Eastern Front to enjoy now...

[Col Deadmarsh]

Originally posted by Zakalwe:

Well, North Africa has always been a mainstay of wargaming. In fact, there has never been a shortage of NA wargames (either computer or board) during the history of wargaming, so somebody has to buy them, right? I'm no übergrog , and yet there are half-a-dozen NA games on my shelves.

You're talking about board games, not computer games. Who's done a North Africa tactical computer game lately?

From a visual standpoint, it's not as interesting as the Western or Eastern Front.

[Nippy]

Originally posted by Colonel_Deadmarsh:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Zakalwe:

Well, North Africa has always been a mainstay of wargaming. In fact, there has never been a shortage of NA wargames (either computer or board) during the history of wargaming, so somebody has to buy them, right? I'm no übergrog , and yet there are half-a-dozen NA games on my shelves.

You're talking about board games, not computer games. Who's done a North Africa tactical computer game lately?

</font>

[Firefly]

Originally posted by Nippy:

The Steel Panther Series delt with both Africa and Italy and Panzer Elite had both an African and Italian Campaign.

[AUSSIEJEFF]

Originally posted by Michael emrys:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by energy76:

For those of you still not convinced, I recommend reading up on it a little and finding out how fascinating it was.

I massively agree. I have an entire shelf or two of books devoted to one aspect of the campaign or another, and if I live long enough I intend to add another.

Michael</font>

[Zakalwe]

Originally posted by Colonel_Deadmarsh:

You're talking about board games, not computer games. Who's done a North Africa tactical computer game lately?

From a visual standpoint, it's not as interesting as the Western or Eastern Front.

There have been few purely North African tactical games lately, I admit. The only one springing to my mind is Operation Crusader (Atomic/Avalon Hill), which was a brilliant grand tactical/operational treatment of the Crusader battles using a wego system several years before CM. (It also had a particularly delightful supply system).

All the more reason for BFC to be the first...

Seriously though, at least here in Europe, most WWII enthusiasts are quite familiar with the North African Campaign. The images of Rommel and the Desert Rats of Tobruk are instantly recognisable and highly evocative. Even Finnish übergrogs have been raised on movies and (especially) comic books on the Desert War.

Visually a North African game could be stunning. There is a wide variety of terrain – eroded escarpments, sheer cliffs, wadis, salt flats, rocky waste, oasis’s, olive groves, vineyards, forests, and even sand dunes... The engine rewrite will in all probability allow for a whole new spectrum of environmental effects applicable to the North African Theatre of Operations. Heat haze, blinding sun and sharp shadows, dust, sandstorms, and extremes of temperature might be very rewarding things to experience. If the new graphics engine can convey even a fraction of the feeling of the North African light and space, people will be blown away.

Of course, the game probably will not be limited to North Africa only. The inclusion of the Italian (and possibly Balkan campaigns) allows for a huge variety of actions and environments.

I think it would be a wonderful thing to experience the new engine in a new setting. Besides, as the new engine is supposed to be more flexible and modular, the waiting between each instalment might be considerably shortened.

[Blenheim]

Combat Mission: Imperial Eagles.

Combat Mission: Revolutionary Wars.

From 1791 to 1815. Everything from Aspern, Austerlitz, Borodino and Jena to Waterloo and the 100 days. Frenchies winning battles. Guys with furry hats. Another winter in Russia. Cossacks!. The bridge of Leipzig. Bresina's crossing. Arapiles. The Iron Duke at Portugal. Spanish Guerrilleros.

Damm, I want this game. Pleaaaaase.

[AnonymousOxide]

Originally posted by Overkill:

Vietnam!!

Just for the sake of discussion, I was always curious what firepower rating a kalashnikov would have in CM terms. Hmmm... the closest thing in CM is probably the MP-44, wonder how the two compare.

[Voxman]

Are you fellas insane ?

BTS is a business, they are going to do it this way:

CM3 - CMDD with CMII engine

CM4 - CMBO with CMII engine

CM5 - CMBB with CMII engine

This takes us to about 2007, then we may see something a little bit different.

However, by 2007 with the advancements in technology, perhaps a whole new rewrite will be in order ?!

Then the cycle repeats itself

Comments welcome

Voxman

[AnonymousOxide]

Originally posted by Voxman:

Are you fellas insane ?

BTS is a business, they are going to do it this way:

CM3 - CMDD with CMII engine

CM4 - CMBO with CMII engine

CM5 - CMBB with CMII engine

This takes us to about 2007, then we may see something a little bit different.

I want BTS to eventually put us in the shoes of soldiers (read: FPS). Operation Flashpoint, Ghost Recon, all these games that claim to be realistic...well... aren't. We can count on the BTS team because they are obsessed with detail like we are.

Imagine a WWII FPS game where morale plays a part, and MMG's/HMG's actually surpress the enemy. Accurately modeled weapons, barrel changing for MG's after roughly 200 rounds of heavy use, yadda yadda yadda.

I think only BTS can do this since other companies are mainly out there for profit and thus they dumb their games down with arcade features so the average Joe can get into them. Has there every really been a grog FPS?

[ November 12, 2002, 07:47 PM: Message edited by: AnonymousOxide ]

[Guest Mike]

Someone suggested the name Combat Mission: The Road to Rome. What about the 11 months of fighting after Rome was liberated?

CM: Tigris to Trieste?

Or, if it doesn't cover the Persian campaigns (which include Russians as well!! ), antioch to the Alps?

Syria to Switzerland?

Alexandria to the Adriatic?

[laxx]

I actually like to mess around with different types of weapons and armies from different nations.

* cough cough *

korea

[energy76]

Originally posted by Voxman:

Are you fellas insane ?

BTS is a business, they are going to do it this way:

CM3 - CMDD with CMII engine

CM4 - CMBO with CMII engine

CM5 - CMBB with CMII engine

This takes us to about 2007, then we may see something a little bit different.

However, by 2007 with the advancements in technology, perhaps a whole new rewrite will be in order ?!

Then the cycle repeats itself

Comments welcome

Voxman

Uh, what's "CMDD?" And do you really think it will take two years to revisit the Ostfront and France with the new engine, when they've already done all the research?

Oh, and by 2007 the guys from BTS will have lost interest in CM, and will be off building their portfolios somewhere else... *shudder*

[Eden Smallwood]

Originally posted by energy76:

Uh, what's "CMDD?"

D-Day Dodgers. France finally loses it, and invades Los Angeles, wreaking havoc on vinyards and cheese farms, and searching for O.J. Simpson, who they believe is hiding in a cave somewhere in Kandahar County.

Eden

[Charlie901]

Next game should do the Battle of The Bulge. Think of all the top WWII military units and equipment, AFV's etc....!