Simple questions about British Armoured Cars:

[Fairbairn-Sykes]

Of course CMBO is a closed book, so this question is rather feckless, however, I must persist:

As much as I love the Daimler Mark I AC, its 2 pounder (40mm) is clearly useless against infantry (especially given its pure AP loadout in CMBO). Its single BESA co-axial MG gets overworked to death in tight spots. I understand that these cars were not designed to engage infantry for prolonged periods... However, the Humber Scout Car (Armed with a Bren or 2) and the Daimler were obviously not the only AFVs that British Reconnaissance and Armoured Car regiments used after Normandy.

I realize that a finite number of vehicles could make it into CMBO. The 'mericans and the Krauts each get several ACs that spit HE (and pose more problems to enemy infantry) as well as AP. I gotta whine a bit.

So where are the AEC Mark II (armed with a 6 pounder and a 7.62 BESA MG) & AEC Mark III (75mm gun and a BESA MG) Armoured Cars? Does anybody have production figures?

Where is the Humber Mark IV AC - with its 37mm gun and coaxial BESA?? Or what of its variant, the Humber AA Mk1, which sported 4 turret mounted BESA 7.62s...??

As well, what became of the Staghound, the American made T17 E1 Armoured Car that fielded a 37mm gun and 3 .30 cal MMGs (or 2 .50 cals), a car that was fairly popular with the Brits IIRC?

I guess this must come down to production figures and I respect BTS' decisions for CMBO... but I want some British Armoured Cars with a little wallop!

[ March 06, 2002, 02:10 PM: Message edited by: Fairbairn-Sykes Trench Knife ]

[JasonC]

Of the types mentioned, the Staghound was the only one as common as the standard Daimler and Humber cars. And it was mostly used by the commonwealth units rather than British, and more heavily used in Italy than in France (though some Canadians did use them in France).

Stags were issued to Canadians, New Zealanders, and Indians. The Brits disliked them because they thought their size and large turning radius unsuited to scouting work, but the Canadians appreciated their armor and firepower.

There were around 3K 2-pdr Daimlers, and more than 5K Humber armored cars. There were also in excess of 14K light scout cars of various makes with a no more than a single Bren gun each (some early war models had a Boys ATR instead, not all used in the west or late, etc). Around 4K Stags were made, around 1K of them duel 50 cal AA versions, most of them 37mm versions, which had 2 30 cals standard, not 3.

As for the AA Daimler with 4 30 cals, they were withdrawn by 1944, after serving in Italy in 1943. Not many were converted. 3 inch support versions were likewise rare, but some were used for fire support in the armored recce regiments. The 37mm Daimlers were not significantly more capable than the 2-pdr versions and were rare by comparison (unlike the Staghounds).

Only around 500 of the heavier AEC cars were made (plus a few early 2-pdr versions). The 75mm versions served in Italy. Some units got upgunned armored cars only in the closing month of the war, and had no chance to use them in action.

So the Stags and the 2-pdr Daimlers were about equally common. The difference was who had them and to some extend where they served (most of the Stags in Italy, most of the Daimlers in France). The Humber was the most common heavy MG car and the standard complement to the gun armed types, but there was a wide variety of lighter MG-only types (Daimler Dingo, etc).

Certainly any of the upgunned types was common compared to a Puma, and so far your concern is perfectly justified. There were gobs more US quad 50 cal or mixed 37mm and 50 cal AA halftracks than there were Wirblewinds or Flakwagens, too. Obscure German special types are included and even relatively common Allied types, often encountered in tactical AARs, just aren't, in CMBO. Presumably to cater to modelers, rather than anything to do with history.

The reality, though, is most UK recce units mixed 37-40mm vehicles with 1-2 MGs, with MG only vehicles, with overall capabilities similar to what you get with Daimlers and Humbers in CM. But their German recce opponents were almost entirely in 20mm PSWs, or in halftracks - not in Pumas. Overuse of the heavy types as long as they are German is the real "scandal", not the absence of uber-scout cars for everybody else.

[gunnergoz]

Nice job of clarifying that for us, Jason. I'm fond of the Staghound and would have liked to see it myself...

[Fairbairn-Sykes]

Originally posted by JasonC:

Certainly any of the upgunned types was common compared to a Puma, and so far your concern is perfectly justified.

Aha. The mystique of the German über-armoured car seduced BTS, then...

Overuse of the heavy types as long as they are German is the real "scandal", not the absence of uber-scout cars for everybody else.

Thanks for the figures. I had wondered about the numbers of the AEC MkII & III, particularly. I'd like to see those cars in future CMs.

[ March 05, 2002, 08:02 PM: Message edited by: Fairbairn-Sykes Trench Knife ]

[karch]

Originally posted by JasonC:

Of the types mentioned, the Staghound was the only one as common as the standard Daimler and Humber cars. ....................

Dang, I was going to say the same thing, but you beat me to it!

[Brian]

Originally posted by Fairbairn-Sykes Trench Knife:

[QB]Of course CMBO is a closed book, so this question is rather feckless, however, I must persist:

As much as I love the Daimler Mark I AC, its 2 pounder (40mm) is clearly useless against infantry (especially given its pure AP loadout in CMBO). Its single BESA co-axial MG gets overworked to death in tight spots. I understand that these cars were not designed to engage infantry for prolonged periods... However, the Humber Scout Car (Armed with a Bren or 2) and the Daimler were obviously not the only AFVs that British Reconnaissance and Armoured Car regiments used after Normandy.

Well, the real problem is that BTS has not provided the Daimler with either the Little John Adapter or the HE rounds which seem to have been issued in NW Europe for use with its 2 Pdr.

While other armoured cars were developed or purchased by the British, they weren't used extensively in NW Europe. The primary gun armed cars were the Daimler (with some Coventrys) and the Humber. The primary scout cars, were the Dingo, the Humber and an odd assortment of various Light Recce Cars like the Otter.

Rather than campaigning for new vehicles, I'd much rather see a patch issued, which is of course now impossible, which allowed the Daimler to have HE.

Just as nice, would be the provision of the Little John Adapter (but that precludes the use of HE). I can just imagine the howls from German players if that was included in the game.

[Soddball]

What's a Little John Adapter?

[Ex Bellator]

I'd like to know as well. So far the only thing that springs to mind is a big fella wearing tights and holding a very big stick. Was this introduced as compulsory dress for the Daimler crews in 1944?

(Good thread BTW)

[ March 06, 2002, 08:49 AM: Message edited by: Rex_Bellator ]

[Ex Bellator]

Woot! My first ever double post.

[ March 06, 2002, 08:53 AM: Message edited by: Rex_Bellator ]

[Ex Bellator]

WTF? Treble post?!

[ March 06, 2002, 08:56 AM: Message edited by: Rex_Bellator ]

[Fairbairn-Sykes]

Originally posted by Soddball:

What's a Little John Adapter?

I believe it allowed the barrel to be lengthened - thus increasing the initial velocity of the gun.

Why doesn't the Daimler get _any_ HE in CMBO?

Anyone know the logic behind this decision?

[Fairbairn-Sykes]

And where, pray tell, is the Morris Light Reconnaissance Car, MkII?

Its 14mm AT rifle and lone Bren gun would be devastating to the German player!

[Brian]

Originally posted by Soddball:

What's a Little John Adapter?

Its basically a screw on adapter to produce a squeeze-bore effect with for AP rounds. Developed in the UK by an emigre Czech (?) engineer whose name escapes me at the moment, they used the same Gerliche principle as the various German squeeze-bore guns but applied it only at the end of the barrel.

Basically it used an APCR round with "skirts" around the body and grooves just behind them. As the round came to the Little John Adapter, the pressure forced the round into the decreasing diameter bore and the skirts would lay flat in the grooves, thereby ejecting it at a higher velocity than it would normally have had.

They were developed both for the 2 Pdr and the US 37mm gun. The adapters were issued to Armoured Car Regiments and the Airborne Recce Regiment in NW Europe on an unknown (to me at least) scale and can be seen in several photos in various books (look at usually Daimler armoured cars and see if they have a longer barrel than normal and you'll find they have a Little John attached). It simply screwed on the end of the barrel with a hexagonal nut.

However, one usually reads that the users had complaints against its use because it prevented the use of HE. Which in itself is interesting, as generally its considered that a HE round for 2 Pdrs was rarely if ever issued in the British Army!

While as I said, a version for the 37mm was made, it was even rarer than the normal 2 Pdr version. The only reference I've come across that mentions it being issued is usually in connection with the Locusts of the Airborne Recce Regiment (I think Chamberlain and Ellis mention it. They might even have a picture of it IIRC).

David Fletcher, the head librarian at the Royal Armoured Museum has told me that he's working a book on the Armoured Car Regiments in NW Europe and it might clear up a lot of the questions about both the HE round and the LJA.

If I was to make an educated guess, I'd suspect that it was issued at perhaps one or two per troop, which would have provided several specialised AT vehicles which were exclusively only available for AT work while the rest of the cars were able to used their guns in a more versatile manner.

[MikeyD]

I recall before CMBO came out BTS had posted a 'wish list' with every conceivable vehicle slated to go into the game. I believe they basically ran into the trouble of too little time and too few references.

After all, BTS didn't exactly start out as a vast conglomerate with infinite resources (which they are now). If we had been willing to wait another year for CMBO to release we probably would'a got the Stag, AEC, Skink, Tetrarch, Otter, Lee Command tank, Panther recovery tank, Sherman Aunt Jemima mine roller tank, etc. etc. etc.

[John D Salt]

Originally posted by Brian:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Soddball:

What's a Little John Adapter?

Its basically a screw on adapter to produce a squeeze-bore effect with for AP rounds. Developed in the UK by an emigre Czech (?) engineer whose name escapes me at the moment,

[snips]

</font>

[John D Salt]

Originally posted by JasonC:

[snips]

Stags were issued to Canadians, New Zealanders, and Indians. The Brits disliked them because they thought their size and large turning radius unsuited to scouting work, but the Canadians appreciated their armor and firepower.

B T White's "Tanks and other AFVs of WW2" points out that the Staghound was used by SHQs and RHQs, where its roominess was appreciated. I have seen the qualities of the Staghound commented on in war diaries for British cavalry regiments serving in Normandy.

Only around 500 of the heavier AEC cars were made (plus a few early 2-pdr versions). The 75mm versions served in Italy. Some units got upgunned armored cars only in the closing month of the war, and had no chance to use them in action.

AECs were used in the 75 troops of armoured car squadrons in NWE.

One of the things that I think is likely to cause confusion is the variety of British recce troops one might meet in the NWE campaign.

Roughly, armoured car regiments (cap-badged cavalry) were the recce troops of Corps. They would drive things like Daimlers, Staghounds (HQ troops), AECs (75 troops) and Humbers (HQ troops), with a fair number of scout cars in the mix.

Armoured recce regiments (cap-badged cavalry) were the recce troops of armoured divisions. These would drive Cromwells. Yes, Cromwells. Under Pip Roberts in 11 Armd Div, they would be treated like any other armoured regiment and brigaded with another regiments and two battalions to form one of two brigade groups in the division.

Recce regiments (cap-badged reconaissance corps) were the recce troops of infantry divisions. They would drive Humbers, carriers, and the Humber Light Recce Car. I really want to see the Humber LRC (and its Canadian equivalent, the Otter) in a future edition of CM, ideally with the choice of Boys ATR or PIAT as anti-tank armament.

Additionally, bear in mind that units had their own recce capabilities, typically Stuarts (possibly with turrets removed) and scout cars of the recce and/or intercomm troops in an armoured regiment, and the carrier platoon in an infantry battalion.

[Of course, none of the above will be comprehensible if you don't know that the British call armour, tank, arty, sapper and recce battalions "regiments" -- but we all knew that, didn't we?]

All the best,

John.

[Fairbairn-Sykes]

Originally posted by John D Salt:

AECs were used in the 75 troops of armoured car squadrons in NWE.

Thanks, Mr Salt. I was sure I'd read of their use in Germany, Spring '45.

[Farnz]

quote:

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Originally posted by Soddball:

What's a Little John Adapter?

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Its basically a screw on adapter to produce a squeeze-bore effect with for AP rounds. Developed in the UK by an emigre Czech (?) engineer whose name escapes me at the moment, they used the same Gerliche principle as the various German squeeze-bore guns but applied it only at the end of the barrel.

Presumably not to be confused with the length of tube strapped to the end of a Sherman 75mm to fool the German that he had a 90mm as used by Mr Sutherland in Kelly's Heroes. And why doesn't BTS model paint rounds ?

Being English my sole reference to the WWII is of course Hollywood.

[Brian]

Originally posted by John D Salt:

[Brian]

Originally posted by John D Salt:

AECs were used in the 75 troops of armoured car squadrons in NWE.

Doesn't Fletcher though, in "Universal Tank" note that the AEC's and Staghounds were basically being phased out by 1945 in the Armoured Car Regiments?

[Of course, none of the above will be comprehensible if you don't know that the British call armour, tank, arty, sapper and recce battalions "regiments" -- but we all knew that, didn't we?]

Never make assumptions, John.