Bog Test Results Part 1

[Maxx]

The test had the following parameters:

South, Damp, June 1944, Hot, Midday, Regulars.

Test track was a 800m stretch of either scattered woods or clear terrain. 10 tanks per type per test, 5 tests for each type in both terrain types. That works out to 50 tests over 800m per vehicle, per terrain type.

Data shows percent of tanks that IMMOBILIZED due to bog.

Clear:

...T34/76 T34/85 Panther Tiger MkIVJ

1.....0........0.........0.......10......0

2.....0........0........10........0.....10

3.....0........0.........0.......10......0

4....10........0.........0........0.....10

5.....0........0........10.......10......0

Scattered Woods:

...T34/76 T34/85 Panther Tiger MkIVJ

1....30.......40.......70......100.....30

2....10.......40.......30......100.....80

3....10.......20.......70......100.....50

4....10.......60.......50......100.....80

5....40.......50.......50......100.....90

Note: The majority of Tigers in scattered woods immobilized within the first 150m of travel. All movement orders were 'fast'. Initial tests using the 'move' order show even higher percentage chance of bogging to immobilized in scattered trees. Sorry for the poor formatting, I don't know how to insert tabs.

[ December 02, 2002, 02:15 PM: Message edited by: Maxx ]

[Vanir Ausf B]

There is no need to test different vehicles against each other sinse the chance of bogging is directly derived from the ground pressure rating. Just compare ground pressures.

[Maxx]

Originally posted by Vanir Ausf B:

There is no need to test different vehicles against each other sinse the chance of bogging is directly derived from the ground pressure rating. Just compare ground pressures.

Well yeah, but.. I wanted a feel for the difference in terrain type.

[WWB]

I think more is involved than ground pressure ratings, but I cannot confirm this as fact.

Two key factors not mentioned--experience of the tanks and speed at which they were moving.

WWB

[Maxx]

Originally posted by wwb_99:

I think more is involved than ground pressure ratings, but I cannot confirm this as fact.

Two key factors not mentioned--experience of the tanks and speed at which they were moving.

WWB

Both these variables are mentioned.

[Vanir Ausf B]

Originally posted by wwb_99:

I think more is involved than ground pressure ratings, but I cannot confirm this as fact.

Two key factors not mentioned--experience of the tanks and speed at which they were moving.

These have been mentioned by people as possible factors since CMBO, but were never confirmed or disproved. However, since they are not characteristics of the particular vehicles being tested it would be easier to test for them by using all vehicles of a single model. Same with terrain.

[WWB]

I see them now, was not too clear.

Experience is definitly a factor in CMBB bogging chances according to BFC. Look at the huge changelog if it is still up.

I am certain movement speed is a huge factor. Run the above test using fast or hunt and see what happens.

WWB

[demoss]

I am certain movement speed is a huge factor. Run the above test using fast or hunt and see what happens.

He said that it was with fast, and that move resulted in even MORE immobilizations (!!!). That, if true, would probably be a bug.

[Maxx]

Yes, 'move' seems to have more immobilizations due to bog than 'fast'. I think this might be due to the tank being in scattered woods much longer than with a 'fast' move. In other words, bogging is a function of time in the terrain, not discrete coordinates (if such a thing is used in CMBB).

[PeterX]

He said that it was with fast, and that move resulted in even MORE immobilizations (!!!). That, if true, would probably be a bug.

I've noticed that employing the HUNT command seems to result in fewer immobs than either MOVE or FAST. The impression is that MOVE is the most bog prone.

I wish BFC would ditch the Ground Pressure/PSI ratio and subsitute a general flotation rating like Very Good, Fair, etc. It would incorporate all the relevant factors including, perhaps, drive train reliabilty.

[ December 02, 2002, 01:44 PM: Message edited by: PeterX ]

[Vanir Ausf B]

Originally posted by wwb_99:

Experience is definitly a factor in CMBB bogging chances according to BFC. Look at the huge changelog if it is still up.

Are you refering to the 1.01 readme? There is nothing on experience effecting bogging in there. If you do have info on this I would be interested.

Maxx:

Yes, 'move' seems to have more immobilizations due to bog than 'fast'. I think this might be due to the tank being in scattered woods much longer than with a 'fast' move. In other words, bogging is a function of time in the terrain, not discrete coordinates (if such a thing is used in CMBB).

In CMBO, the faster you went, the less likely you were to bog, given an equal distance traveled. I don't know if this is still the same in CMBB, but I intend to find out

[WWB]

No, I am referring to the CMBO->CMBB changelog. The massive, 50 pager that they posted after the demo came out.

Time in terrain would have an effect to be sure. We might need to look at bogs per second of movmement.

One other issue with the test is that 10 is far too small a sample. As Matt has said, any statistical test with fewer than 100 cases is not a valid test.

WWB

[Maxx]

Okay, same test, only this time the 'move' command was used instead of 'fast'. Every other variable was the same. Again, these are done in lots of 10 over 5 test trials. That is 50 tests over 800m per vehicle, per terrain type.

Data shows percent of tanks that are IMMOBILIZED due to bog.

Clear:

...T34/76 T34/85 Panther Tiger MkIVJ

1....10........0.........0.......10......0

2.....0........0........10.......10......0

3.....0........0.........0.......20......0

4.....0.......10.........0.......10.....10

5.....0........0.........0.......30......0

Scattered Woods:

...T34/76 T34/85 Panther Tiger MkIVJ

1....20.......30.......70......100.....70

2.....0.......50.......70......100.....40

3....10.......50.......60......100.....40

4....30.......10.......20......100.....60

5....10.......20.......50......100.....70

Note: I don't see alot of difference between 'move' and 'fast' as far as being immobilized due to bog. Perhaps 'move' is a bit worse than 'fast' for a Tiger in clear terrain.

[ December 02, 2002, 02:15 PM: Message edited by: Maxx ]

[Vanir Ausf B]

Originally posted by wwb_99:

No, I am referring to the CMBO->CMBB changelog. The massive, 50 pager that they posted after the demo came out.

]http://www.battlefront.com/products/cmbb/new%20features.html

I'm not seeing it in there either.

[ December 02, 2002, 02:30 PM: Message edited by: Vanir Ausf B ]

[WWB]

Hmm, yeah, it is not in there. I do recall Steve saying they were going to make bogging dependant on experience, but it might not have actually made it in.

WWB

[PJungnitsch]

This is how the east front MMP rankings would go:

Panther 150-155

BT-5 175

T-34/76 174-186

Tiger II 184

Tiger I 185-192

KV-1 208

Panzer IV 184-191

T-34/85 196

Panzer III 220-232

BT-7 240

JS-I, II, III 245

Universal Carrier 253

Sherman VVSS 282

Elephant 370

PzIII and PzIV do not appear to include Ostkotten.

Early war floatation rankings shouldn't change much from NGP ratings. Late war they would though.

[Maxx]

Result's for hunt:

Every other variable was the same as the 'move' and 'fast' tests. These are done in lots of 10 over 5 test trials. That is 50 tests per vehicle, per terrain type.

Data shows percent of tanks that are IMMOBILIZED due to bog moving in 'hunt' mode.

Clear:

...T34/76 T34/85 Panther Tiger MkIVJ

1.....0........0.........0.......20......0

2.....0.......10........10.......10.....10

3....10........0........10.......10......0

4.....0........0.........0.......10......0

5....10........0.........0.......10......0

Scattered trees:

...T34/76 T34/85 Panther Tiger MkIVJ

1....10.......20.......40......100.....30

2.....0.......50.......80......100.....70

3.....0.......30.......30......100.....60

4....10.......20.......30......100.....70

5....10.......10.......30......100.....50

Looks similar to 'move' IMO.

[ December 02, 2002, 08:20 PM: Message edited by: Maxx ]

[Maxx]

Wet ground - Fast movement. All other variables kept the same (see above).

Data shows percent of tanks that are IMMOBILIZED due to bog moving in 'fast' mode.

Clear:

...T34/76 T34/85 Panther Tiger MkIVJ

1....10........0........20.......80.....20

2.....0........0.........0.......80......10

3.....0........0........20.......80.....20

4.....0........0........10.......50.....20

5.....0........0........20......100.....10

Scattered trees:

...T34/76 T34/85 Panther Tiger MkIVJ

1....60.......50.......80......100.....90

2....40.......70.......60......100....100

3....40.......80......100......100.....90

4....70.......80......100......100.....50

5....40.......50.......90.......100.....90

[ December 02, 2002, 10:35 PM: Message edited by: Maxx ]

[GJK]

So per the tests, a Tiger is going to bog in scattered trees every time. Is that realistic?

[Maxx]

Originally posted by GJK:

So per the tests, a Tiger is going to bog in scattered trees every time. Is that realistic?

Not only bog, but be immobilized. The chart shows percent immobilized from bog over an 800m path.

[ December 02, 2002, 10:34 PM: Message edited by: Maxx ]

[Uedel]

If the results of the Test would be realistic Germany would got have real difficuluts placing Tigers on the Front, think about a Tiger Factory every 2 Km on the whole front, because u dont wanna make it more then 2 km´s with a Tiger lol

[Eden Smallwood]

Hey guys; nice tests, ( I think ). It's just me, Mr N. L. Retentive programmer, poking around with the UBB code... It looks like we can preserve tabs and spaces with a CODE block, fwiw.

Eden

Clear:

T34/76 T34/85 Panther Tiger MkIVJ

</font><blockquote>code:</font><hr /><pre style="font-size:x-small; font-family: monospace;">1 10 0 20 80 20

2 0 0 0 80 10

3 0 0 20 80 20

4 0 0 10 50 20

5 0 0 20 100 10</pre>

[Hurricane]

I might remember wrong, but wasn't the risk of bogging smaller in scattered trees than clear in CMBO? I think this was explained by the fact that roots and stuff would prevent the ground from getting muddy. These results, OTOH, clearly seems to show that you in CMBB should stay out of scattered trees.

[GJK]

Eden: Did you just use a "blockquote" to keep the formatting?

As for the tests: I don't like the thought of something happening (be it ill-wanted or well-wanted) 100% of the time. The bog rate of a Tiger may have been high (I don't know) but I can't believe it's going to bog (and immobilize!) 100% of the time in scattered woods.

Hopefully BFC can confirm and debug if necessary.

[thewood]

Are there any results for how far Tigers got into the trees before bogging? It may look like it bogs 100% of the time, but if the stretch of trees is long enough, any thing will bog eventually. I assume the Tigers don't bog as soon as they hit the trees, but after being in them for a while.