quote on jochen peiper

[laxx]

interesting quote on Jochen Peiper and his tank tactics:

"Obersturmbannfuehrer (SS Lieutenant Colonel) Jochen Peiper was one of the most sensational figures of the Battle of the Bulge. He was handsome, daring, intelligent -- and only 28 years old. He had risen to his command through a combination of talent, drive, and political reliability. He had been an adjutant to Heinrich Himmler, the head of the Gestapo. Later, on the Eastern Front, he had pioneered daring armored tactics. At the head of a small group of tanks, he would raid deep into the Russian rear, shooting up supply columns and wreaking havoc. He always managed to extricate himself from apparently hopeless situations. His legendary exploits had made him a hero in the German army and gained him rapid promotions.

But Peiper was ruthless. He would put two or three halftracks at the head of his columns and then charge deep into enemy territory. The halftracks would be sacrificed but the tanks behind them would then take out whatever defenses had been flushed by the halftracks."

lifted from a text file of the game patton strikes back.

[ December 21, 2002, 02:15 PM: Message edited by: laxx ]

[Hortlund]

Originally posted by laxx:

He had been an adjutant to Heinrich Himmler, the head of the Gestapo.

Whoever wrote that disqualified himself right there. If he cant keep track of very simple basic historical facts, why listen to the rest of what he has to say?

[Rob Murray]

They should also mention that he was well aware of; and approved of the Final Solution.

[Hortlund]

Who, Himmler?

[Mace]

Originally posted by Leutnant Hortlund:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by laxx:

He had been an adjutant to Heinrich Himmler, the head of the Gestapo.

Whoever wrote that disqualified himself right there. If he cant keep track of very simple basic historical facts, why listen to the rest of what he has to say?</font>

[Headshot]

I read an article about Peiper once,and gather he settled in France after the war,where he was later murdered at home. But WHY FRANCE of all places to choose to live in??? Clue me in please !

[109 Gustav]

Originally posted by Headshot:

I read an article about Peiper once,and gather he settled in France after the war,where he was later murdered at home. But WHY FRANCE of all places to choose to live in??? Clue me in please !

Girls?

[Jaws]

Read the book "THE DEVIL'S ADJUTANT" "JOCHEN PEIPER, PANZER LEADER" from Michael Reynolds and you get a good picture of Peiper.

On one site you must have respect for him (friend and foe) on the other site he did exactly those terrible things you can expect from a SS leader.

[Andreas]

Originally posted by 109 Gustav:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Headshot:

I read an article about Peiper once,and gather he settled in France after the war,where he was later murdered at home. But WHY FRANCE of all places to choose to live in??? Clue me in please !

Girls?</font>

[Hortlund]

Originally posted by Mace:

Actually, he's correct. Himmler wasn't just in charge on the SS, but most of Nazi Germany's state security related organisations as well, including the Police and Gestapo.

to quote Grolier:

'After Hitler's accession to power, Himmler began to expand the SS into a vast empire within the Nazi state. In 1933-1934 he took over the political police, converting it into a totalitarian secret police known as the Gestapo. He was also a leader in the subjugation of the SA (Storm Troopers), his major competitors within the Nazi party, in June 1934. Simultaneously, he started to build a system of concentration camps and created the nucleus of a military SS (Waffen SS). His appointment as chief of the entire German police system followed in June 1936.'

Mace[/QB]

I dunno, that doesnt sound right, Himmler was never head of the Gestapo. Göring was at one time, but I cant remember for how long though. Himmler was the boss over SS, Gestapo was never a part of the SS. Gestapo was the "secret police" of the police force. SS had its own "secret police" but that was called the Sicherheitsdienst, or the SD for short.

Then you had the RSHA, somehow merging these two units together but the chains of command for that organization is way to complicated to understand.

[cbb]

Originally posted by Jaws:

Read the book "THE DEVIL'S ADJUTANT" "JOCHEN PEIPER, PANZER LEADER" from Michael Reynolds and you get a good picture of Peiper.

On one site you must have respect for him (friend and foe) on the other site he did exactly those terrible things you can expect from a SS leader.

There is a far better book on Peiper: "Jochen Peiper" by Patrick Agte. It's very expensive but is much, much better than Reynolds' book. It covers Peiper's life in great detail and provides a very different picture of Peiper (in marked contrast to the standard "bloodthirsty nazi" view so prevelant in other books).

[ichadwick]

...Himmler was never head of the Gestapo. Göring was at one time, but I cant remember for how long though. Himmler was the boss over SS, Gestapo was never a part of the SS. Gestapo was the "secret police" of the police force. SS had its own "secret police" but that was called the Sicherheitsdienst, or the SD for short.

Actually Heinrich Himmler took over the Gestapo in April 1934 when Goering appointed Himmler as deputy chief of the Prussian Secret Police. This placed the Gestapo under Himmler's direct command.

The Gestapo was created on April 26, 1933, by Goering - originally to replace the old Prussian political police known as Department IA. Goering called the new organization the Geheime Staatspolizei, the Secret State Police, or, in abbreviated form, the Gestapo.

When Goering became minister of the interior in Prussia in 1933, he recruited Rudolf Diels as head of Dept 1A. Diels, a lawyer, joined the political police in Prussia in 1930 and became an expert on gathering information to incriminate political radicals.

Goering made Diels head of the Gestapo. Himmler and Heydrich were jealous of the power of the Gestapo and spread rumours about Diels's loyalty to Adolf Hitler. Under pressure from Himmler and Wilhelm Frick, Goering agreed to hand over control of the Gestapo to Himmler's Schutzstaffel (SS).

On February 10, 1936, the Reich decreed that the Gestapo was above all laws of the land. Himmler was named as chief of all secret police in Germany in June 1936, operating under the Ministry of the Interior. Himmler then placed the Gestapo under the command of Reinhard Heydrich with Heinrich Muller becoming the chief of operations.

Later in 1936, the Gestapo merged with the Kriminalpolizei (or "Kripo," German for Criminal Police). The newly integrated unit was the called the Sicherheitspolizei (or "Sipo" - Secret Police).

In 1939, Sipo merged with an intelligence branch of the military, the Sicherheitsdienst ("SD" - Security Service). After this merger, Sipo became the Reichssicherheitshauptamt ("RHSA" - Reich Security Central Office), headed by Reinhard Heydrich.

Because of these frequent changes, the functions of the Gestapo became blurred, and often overlapped with those of the other branches of the German forces.

With cut-and-paste apologies to various sources.

Ian

[Lt Bull]

Originally posted by laxx:

He would put two or three halftracks at the head of his columns and then charge deep into enemy territory. The halftracks would be sacrificed but the tanks behind them would then take out whatever defenses had been flushed by the halftracks.

What a gamey bastard! :eek:

BTW, would be great to have been able to read the memoirs of those poor halftrack drivers "Sacrifice: Driving halftracks at the head of Piepers KG".

Lt Bull

[Michael Dorosh]

Originally posted by Andreas:

Never, you want to settle in Italy for that...

How would you know?

[jbertles]

This quote from Charles B. MacDonald's "A Time for Trumpets":

"He personally led a night attack on the village of Pekartschina with flamethrowers mounted on his halftracks and burned the village to the ground - other units of the division called Peiper's SS-Panzergrenadiers the "Blowtorch Battalion." In one drive, the panzer regiment claimed 2,500 Russians killed and only 3 captured..."

BTW, this book is a fabulous resource for info on the Battle of the Bulge, full of small unit actions described in great detail.

[Nidan1]

An interesting passage from the book "Jochen Peiper" by Charles Whiting, an exchange between Lt.Col Burton Ellis, one of the prosecutors at the Nuremburg Trials, and Peiper, who was on the stand. Ellis was pushing Peiper to determine if units in his KG had murdered Belgian civilians in Bullingen.

"Dealing with alleged murders of Belgian civilians at Bullingen, Ellis asked Peiper, "Did you see an 80 year old woman firing at you from the windows there in Bullingen?"

"In those short moments I had no occasion to determine the age of the person firing," Peiper replied sardonically.

Ellis persisted:"Did you see a one year old baby firing at you from the window in Bullingen?"

Peiper allowed himself a cold smile," No, not even in Russia did I see any one year old babies firing"

[laxx]

Hi,

the full text from Chris Crawford's most excellent game (IMHO, and flopped in the market place), Patton Strikes Back:

---start-----

In a cellar in the village of Stoumont, Major Hal McCown of the 30th Infantry Division was deep in conversation with Colonel Jochen Peiper, the commander of the lead element of the 1st SS Panzer Division. McCown had been captured the previous afternoon while reconnoitering an attack against Peiper's surrounded forces. As a battalion commander, McCown was a minor prize. Around midnight that night, Peiper, fluent in English, had questioned McCown himself, but the interrogation evolved into a conversation between professional adversaries. Peiper and McCown spoke of war and peace, of politics, of their different views of the world. Peiper, an ardent Nazi, tried to communicate to McCown his image of Nazism as a purifying and unifying force in a corrupt and decadent Europe. McCown, keeping in mind the possibility of escape, encouraged Peiper and tried to prolong the conversation, hoping to learn something of military value. Peiper, with nothing better to do until sunrise, stayed up all night talking with the American. A wary rapport developed between the two officers. McCown asked for and got Peiper's word of honor that his American prisoners would not be harmed.

The next day, Peiper had to abandon his fuelless tanks and break out of the American ring on foot. True to his word, he released the American prisoners unharmed, but he took Major McCown with him. The day after that, a confused firefight erupted between the retreating Germans and an American force. McCown, seeing his opportunity, slipped away in the chaos.

McCown and Peiper were destined to meet once more. McCown came to the Malmedy Trial to testify about Peiper's honorable treatment of the American prisoners in Stoumont.

/Jochen Peiper

Obersturmbannfuehrer (SS Lieutenant Colonel) Jochen Peiper was one of the most sensational figures of the Battle of the Bulge. He was handsome, daring, intelligent -- and only 28 years old. He had risen to his command through a combination of talent, drive, and political reliability. He had been an adjutant to Heinrich Himmler, the head of the Gestapo. Later, on the Eastern Front, he had pioneered daring armored tactics. At the head of a small group of tanks, he would raid deep into the Russian rear, shooting up supply columns and wreaking havoc. He always managed to extricate himself from apparently hopeless situations. His legendary exploits had made him a hero in the German army and gained him rapid promotions.

But Peiper was ruthless. He would put two or three halftracks at the head of his columns and then charge deep into enemy territory. The halftracks would be sacrificed but the tanks behind them would then take out whatever defenses had been flushed by the halftracks.

There is also no doubt that Peiper's men committed war crimes. Although he released the American prisoners at Stoumont unharmed, a total of 300 American POWs and perhaps 100 Belgian civilians were murdered by Peiper's men in the Battle of the Bulge. For these crimes Peiper was sentenced to death, but the sentence was commuted because of procedural irregularities and Peiper was released in 1957.

He concealed his identity, moved to France and settled down to a quiet life translating German books into English. In the late 1970s a French magazine published his identity and address. Two nights later, somebody set fire to his house; Peiper died in the fire.

--------

I think not only is he gamey but quite creative himself, gotta try the half-track as bait tactic.

[ December 21, 2002, 08:13 PM: Message edited by: laxx ]

[Aacooper]

"Men of Steel" by Reynolds includes a 1967 newspaper interview quote from Peiper:

I was a Nazi and I remain one....The Germany of today is no longer a great nation, it has become a province of Europe....I shall settle elsewhere, in France no doubt. I don't particularly care for Frenchmen, but I love France. Of all things, the materialism of my compatriots causes me pain.

So, that's why he moved to France. Read in between the lines for a fuller picture.

[tracer]

hey, I use the same tatics, throw my halftrcks in front as cannon fodder then take out the enemy postions, heck all army's use that atctic. I was stationed near the "Fulda Gap" back when there still was a wall, everyone called the "Grunts" (infantry for the newbies), "Bullet Catchers" because if the ruskys ever came through they would basically be catchin the bullets. Well crap, does that make me a "Pieper"??, hhmmm, I'll hve to think about that one

[Rob Murray]

I'd take anything Patrick Agte writes with a grain of salt. I have Michael Wittmann & the Tiger Commanders of the Leibstandarte. I've read it & I found that the book is very pro-German ( almost to the point of being pro-Nazi in places ). Plus, the North American publishers ( won't mention the name: don't feel like being sued ) of the book are extremely pro-German. I got one of their catalogues a couple of years ago & the blurb for French McLean's The Camp Men went something like this: " purports to show the relationship between the Waffen SS & the men who staffed the concentration camps ". This put me right off buying anymore of their books.

[ December 21, 2002, 11:57 PM: Message edited by: Rob Murray ]

[laxx]

More Quotes:

On Casualties

Wartime casualties are broken down into three categories: battle casualties, non-battle injuries, and sickness. This last category accounted for ten times as many casualties as battle casualties. Trenchfoot, pneumonia, malaria, venereal disease, and other ailments took their toll. Few soldiers died of their illnesses, but a great many were put out of action for up to six weeks at a time, and trenchfoot sent many home minus toes and feet.

Non-battle injuries resulted from accidents, and these also outnumbered battle injuries. About 40% of such injuries arose from traffic accidents. If you recall that the average American infantry division stocked nearly 2,000 vehicles, all of which were driven by 18-22 year olds, you get the picture. Accidental fires, unintended discharge of weapons and premature detonation of explosives accounted for the other accidental injuries.

Artillery inflicted about half of all battle casualties. The machine gun came second, making about 20% of all battle casualties. Next came rifle fire at 10%, and mines also at 10%. The remaining 10% covers a hodgepodge of factors: crushing, asphyxiation, drowning during combat, phosphorus burns, etc.

While artillery wounded a lot of people, it killed only 19% of its victims. Machine gun fire killed 42% of its victims, largely because machine guns tend to inflict multiple wounds. Not surprisingly, wounds were distributed randomly over the body surface. The arms and legs received 47% of wounds; the head and neck, 18%; the trunk 12%; and the genitalia, 0.6%./

[cbb]

Originally posted by Rob Murray:

I'd take anything Patrick Agte writes with a grain of salt. I have Michael Wittmann & the Tiger Commanders of the Leibstandarte. I've read it & I found that the book is very pro-German ( almost to the point of being pro-Nazi in places ). Plus, the North American publishers ( won't mention the name: don't feel like being sued ) of the book are extremely pro-German. I got one of their catalogues a couple of years ago & the blurb for French McLean's The Camp Men went something like this: " purports to show the relationship between the Waffen SS & the men who staffed the concentration camps ". This put me right off buying anymore of their books.

I hate to get into another drawn-out debate about books but allow me to say this:

I have both Agte books (Wittmann and Peiper). They are superb works, packed with details about the men and their units and containing hundreds of great photographs. Neither are remotely "pro-Nazi" (nor are they "ALMOST pro-nazi", whatever that means)...

I don't know what you mean by saying the publisher is "pro-German". The publisher certainly publishes a lot of very high quality books on the German military in World War II (most translated into English from original German works) with a focus on armor. (They also sell modeling kits and supplies, again with an emphasis on armor). If that's what you consider "pro-German", then so be it but that shouldn't in any way cause someone to take Agte's books "with a grain of salt." ...

As for a "blurb" from the publisher's catalogue two years ago that, in describing a book by French McLean, went "something like ...", I cannot fathom how such a "blurb" should cause anyone to question the accuracy of a book written by Agte. (And, by the way, I don't dispute your recollection of that "blurb" from two years ago. McLean's book does indeed purport to show a relationship between the Waffen SS & the men who staffed the concentration camps. Whether he succeeds or not in showing that relationship is up to the reader. Obviously that supposedly "pro-German" publisher thought enough of McLean's work to list it in its catalogue and offer to sell it).

[KwK43 L/71]

I'm not going to comment on Peiper or the books, I'm an engineer and much more of an equipment afficiando then someone who can quote battlion, commander, and TO&E from memory.

Talking about Laxx's casualty figures, they look dead on. If you consider that the majority of the members of the armed forces and non-combatants and are far from combat the only thing that can happen to them is sickness (how many eigth air force maintence men took a bullet?) Naturally that category is huge.

I live in a college town and the driving is horrible, driving 10 miles an hour over the speed limit is obstructing the flow of traffic. Given the conditions of the roads where those GIs were driving and the pressures they were under it's not surprising that traffic accidents probably claimed as many lives as artillery.

However I have one question about the distribution of machinegun hits, those percentages only come to 77.6%, where did the other 22.4% hit?