Shoot and Withdraw

[polytropos]

I have found a very useful command lacking in all three CM games. The command is a "Shoot and Withdraw" given to infantry, primarily of the AT type (PIATs, Fausts, Bazookas), where the unit would fire one shot and immediately withdraw to a predisclosed location. In effect, this command would be functionally identical to the "Shoot and Scoot" command currently available to AFV's. Many times I have been in an ambush position where an infantry AT assest fires off an initial shot only to sit there for the remaining 40 secs. or so waiting for orders. Invariably, the unit is discovered and all hell is brought upon it. This command, however, would allow the unit to rip off a shot (which very often goes undetected) and pull back before they are discovered. I imagine that such a command would be of great use in urban combat situations. I was wondering what you guys thought of such a new command.....

Take care,

Jerry

[KyleG]

I will be waiting for this in the next patch

[d95err]

Isn't it possible to delay an order in 10 second intervals (only played the demo and it was a while ago). In that case, you could delay the fire order for 50 seconds. This would make the infantry team wait until the end of the turn, fire the shot and in the next turn you could order it to withdraw.

Sort of a clumsy workaround, but it could work.

[Firefly]

No, the delay order only works with movement orders.

[Rabidbvr]

Hello one and all

You can get a the same effect if you give the unit an Advance/Move/Sneak which ever is best to a point from which you wish to fire then a move order back to a safe place... most of the time the unit will advance see the .target.fire. then follow the order to move back as with most units if it sees a target it will fire.. snag is if it gets seen b4 the move back it will go to ground the other option if you wish to save your A/T unit is to send an infantry unit with them... while the A/T takes his shots split the infantry unit and run them round like headless chickens will sure draw some fire...

happy hunting

[birdstrike]

I think this is a general problem of the current game engine, that units cannot be given precise orders of how to react under certain circumstances, like giving them the possibility to react different depending on the type of enemy they encounter. For instance: the current use of cover arcs could be improved by a third 'attack infantry only' - to avoid infantry units waiting in ambush to give away their position when they try to shoot at a passing Tiger.

The possibility to apply the delay feature to fire oders (not just moving orders) is something I'm missing, too - perhaps an additional 'hold fire' option could be included.

We've come a long way since CMBO, but IMHO the units need to be more flexible in terms of unforseen things happening. A more complex orders menu like e.g. in TacOps would be great - but this won't be solved within the limits of this engine. No patch on earth that could do that, I'm afraid. We'll have to wait for the next CM engine.

[polytropos]

Couldn't you implement the command as BFC did with "Shoot and Scoot" for AFV's? The command, like for AFV's, would be a two-parter but instead of identifying an area to go to before searching for a target to engage, this command would have the infantry AT asset target a specfic unit first, then upon firing once, immediately withdrawing to a predisclosed location. I think this is well within the competence of the current game engine.

[Alkiviadis]

I totally agree re: a infantry fire-&-withdraw command being added to the action list.

But I've found an interesting alternative to the shoot-&-scoot cmd:

A shoot-&-scoot starts out with a fast move...a snap-shot at the target...then a fast move...

I've found a better cmd. combo for ambushes is:

(move-to-contact + hide) combined with targetting the object of destruction.

the move will allow better targetting & the ...to-contact & hide combo cause the unit to reverse out of line-of-sight...great for ambushes & feints.

[Bone_Vulture]

Uh, unless someone already mentioned it:

If your unit is in the correct spot for shooting, you can prohibit it's target selection with a cover arc, and choose the target with the fire command. Give the unit a movement order to some safe location, and add pause commands (if necessary) to get a 20-30 second delay.

During the next round, the unit will fire at the unit you pointed, or inside the arc you set, and will maneuver to safety once the command delay counts out.

[Jim Boggs]

I'd like to lobby for a shoot and hit something command.

[CMplayer]

I want shoot and then decide whether to try again or boogie depending on whether they noticed where the shot came from.

[Kilroy Lurking]

I think a "shoot and hide" command would be more useful as the firing unit is probably in the best available position to start with.

However in my experience (mainly I admit so far not in CMAK) the chances of a hit let alone a kill with the first shot seem altogether remote for a hand held AT weapon even at close range. I get the feeling that the AI asumes that the range indicators/operator experience are worth zilch and that the first shot is a ranging or calibration shot! So a shoot and Hide/withdraw command would need also to include shoot "X"times and then act.

[Rabidbvr]

hello one and all

With ref to "shoot@hide" you try to tell the fool to hide after he has shot many a time i have seen them lob shot after shot at a target when all you want him to do is keep his head down...Would seem after a unit has fired once at a target he wants to crack the egg so to speak

happy hunting

[MikeyD]

"I will be waiting for this in the next patch"

And you'll be waiting and waiting. I'd say the chance of getting a whole new movement command into CMAK v1.02 is less than zero. As a matter of fact I've seen BFC commenting on (complaining about?) the tendency of some players to over-control their units instead of letting nature - and the AI - take its course.

[GoofyStance]

Originally posted by KyleG:

I will be waiting for this in the next patch

Kyle, this is way off the topic, but I noticed your tag line and HAD to comment. I'd consider Tulsa's airport to be considerably more of a major airport than Wiley Post

[Wires]

I think it would be wiser in general to have different types of firing states that you can set your units, and then allow this to be changed at each waypoint you set... so you would have say "hold fire" "return fire only" suppressing fire" "fire at will" and maybe "short burst/single shot"... so you could for example have your unit sneak into a building and take a pop shot and run back all by changing the fireing mode for the waypoints.. I find it annoying that you can't set your units to move to a position.. and then fire at a certain target... I think the system needs to be re-worked really... its a little to clumsy

[polytropos]

Honestly, I don't see that a "Shoot and Withdraw" or a "Shoot and Hide" command is either a) too much micro-management or taxes the limits of the current system. Since it is functionally identical to a "Shoot and Scoot" command, except that the unit is already in place, niether a nor b are an issue. IMHO, such a command, or one similiar to it, is much needed.

j.

[dieseltaylor]

Well I agree with MikeyD. The game IMO is meant ot be played pretty much a platoon level and there does appear to be a tendency for people to want perfect results.

There are two reasons why I think it correct to have the AI responsible as is:

A: Most importantly because of Borg spotting you as a commander have way way too much information which already allows you to plan more adequately than in reallife

B. and far less importantly the figures represent men somewhere in a 20 metre square box so certainly at squad level it is not as precise as the little figures show

I think a lot of people should play TCP/IP or LAN with the one minute orders ticker running to get the general feel of the combat rather than viewing it as animated chess with lots of fancy pieces. You learn to love your AI and appreciate the beauty of the game. BTW if you are playing over 1500 pts go for two minutes!!!

[dieseltaylor]

polytropos

I think your view of the training of the average infantryman is a little optmistic. The capabilities of most squads was to be told where to go and attack and when to defend. Within that you obviously have variations but it is the exceptions to the run of the mill soldiering that get repeated and admired - and this builds a false picture of the normal activity/capability of soldiers.

If we had Ghurkas fair enough, fanaticsm and major heroics every battle .....

BTS do build in better response times, accuracy, use of cover etc for superior troops so the AI can show the difference without human intervention. The requirement to have a shoot and scoot for infantry goes a two steps to far in micromanagemnet - for the reasons mentioned in my first post.