BAR question

[Mr. Tittles]

The battle reports from Korea are similar to those from Italy. The BAR allowed full powered automatic weapons fire to keep up with the troops in rough terrain. Humping tripod MGs and the water and ammo was brutal up hilly/mountanous terrain.

We sort of ignore the Pacific but the same can be said there for jungle and volcanic islands.

[Michael Emrys]

Originally posted by Mr. Tittles:

Once I fire 3-4 rounds, I can not top up till I shoot off the rest.

Several sources I have come across specifically mention that although you could reload single cartridges into a Garand magazine, it was a total pain in the ass to accomplish and was practically never done in practice. IIRC, the procedure was to hold back the bolt against heavy spring pressure with one hand while you tried to feed cartridges in with the other. Not the kind of thing you'd want to undertake under fire in the dark...or any other time, really. Possibly the worst feature of that particular weapon.

:eek:

Michael

[Mr. Tittles]

I think people have hit upon the fact that the BAR and M1 Carbine had a nice 'well' of bullets once loaded. In the case of a BAR, 20 rounds that could be put down range either semi (or mock-semi) or full auto. The M1 carbine had 15 and could be put out as fast as the trigger was pulled. Either weapon could be re-clipped at any time if the shooter was not sure what was left in the 'well'.

Not so with the Garand. It is a big difference.

The BAR is often criticised for its 20 round mag. This may have been a designed feature (so the weapon could not be overcycled and overheated) or just a serendipity feature. In any event, I believe the weapon was best used semi and in short bursts on high auto. I have seen footage of the weapon firing full-slow-auto. It looks like someone is punching the firer in the shoulder 6 times a second. I have also seen a M2 Carbine do full auto and it is slightly erratic (but both would have been great against human wave tactics).

I have fired the M1 Carbine and it has a small kick that I thought was annoying. I can shoot a M16 all day but I would not care to field a M1 Carbine ever.

[Siege]

I've loaded up garand clips in the past, and to even think about doing it while in the gun and during combat..... forget about it, too hard under the conditions. It's difficult enough to do when you are sitting in a warm dry house and can actually hold onto everything outside of the gun. You would save a lot of time by either shooting it empty, or just pulling the magazine out and putting a full one back it.

Lets not mention that if you aren't careful loading the magazine into the rifle, and the bolt catches your thumb on the way forward, it can easily break the bones. The injury even had a name "M-1 Thumb".

But you do have to compare it to other weapons in use at the time worldwide such as the 1903 Springfield, SMLE, Nagant and 98k. I'd still take a semi-auto 8rd rifle with quirky loading than a 5rd bolt-action rifle. Just try cycling the bolt on a bolt rifle when you are trying to lay as prone as possibly and you'll understand.

-Hans

[Stalin's Organ]

Originally posted by Siege:

But you do have to compare it to other weapons in use at the time worldwide such as the 1903 Springfield, SMLE, Nagant and 98k. I'd still take a semi-auto 8rd rifle with quirky loading than a 5rd bolt-action rifle. Just try cycling the bolt on a bolt rifle when you are trying to lay as prone as possibly and you'll understand.

SMLE had a 10 round mag, and earlier versions (WW1) had a restraint to allow you to keep them all while loading and firing single shot.

I've never seen anyone have trouble with a British bolt action (SMLE, Mk 4) - I've always found it smooth, fast and easy - for a manual bolt.

The Moison-Nagant on the other hand I found awkward because the bolt handle is not bent and doesn't come smoothly to hand when searching for it (tried on a 1944 model carbine with a fixed bayonet that shot a 3-4 foot flame out the front when fired because of the short barrel!)

[Bimmer]

The ease of working a bolt gun depends an awful lot on just how smooth the mechanism is. Personally, I like straight bolt handles, but that's more preference than anything else. Mosin-Nagants are generally lousy due to that archaic bolt design and stubby handle - even my Finn M-39 is a pain. My 03A3 Springfield is very tight and requires a lot of force, making it a bit of a pain to work prone (though there are many with smooth actions - mine is just a bit flaky, being a parts gun), but my m/38 Swedish Mauser and 98/29 Persian (Czech contract gun) are tremendously smooth and easy to work when prone, especially the Swede, which cocks on closing. But hands down the smoothest, slickest bolt action I've ever felt is in my Swiss K-31 straight-pulls. Easy to work, fantastic accuracy. A Swiss watch that shoots.

[Michael Emrys]

Perhaps the problem related to prone firing Siege alluded to involved more than just the ease of working a bolt. If you are trying to maintain concealment as long as possible, you give the enemy more to look at if you are vigorously moving your arm about than if you are just pulling the trigger. Of course, smokeless, flashless powder helps too and the Americans were damnably slow to incorporate that. So maybe it all evens out.

Michael

[Bimmer]

That may well be. Maintaining sight picture is another problem with bolt guns. But again, the easier it is to work the bolt, the less movement the firer will make. Several of mine will operate with fingertips, with very little arm movement. And, of course, the straight-pulls are in a class by themselves.

I'm in no way trying to dispute the superiority of semi-auto vice bolt as combat rifles, but merely to point out that not all bolt guns are created equal.

[Mr. Tittles]

I wonder if the game can model the increasing US squad firepower as a function of SL experience.

An example would be a Green squad fires at a target. The initial burst is weaker than stated in the unit info charts. As each subsequant burst is fired, it increases with leadership, pinning, etc all factoring in. An airborne squad would not be so penalized. The individual initiative and extensive training factoring in.

[Los]

"Several sources I have come across specifically mention that although you could reload single cartridges into a Garand magazine, it was a total pain in the ass to accomplish and was practically never done in practice."

Of course you can always just clear the weapon. Unload the old clip by locking the operating rod handle to the rear, holding it there and depressing the clip latch. Takes about a second or two. Then load a fresh clip and reload the other one at your convenience. WARNING IF YOU AREN'T IN THE MIDDLE OF A FIREFIGHT, PUT THE WEAPON ON SAFE FIRST! (Don't wanna get sued by some tool)

Los

[BARMAN1950]

I went to Korea in July 1950 as a BAR man (Browning Automatic Rifle). Now I can't speak for WW II types, but I can tell you that during the Korean War the BAR was a superb weapon. Later when I became a Squad leader & Platoon Sgt I still carried a BAR. Normally the BAR "team" was the gunner, an asst & the asst Squad leader . Using the BAR as a base of fire it allowed the squad to use the concept of "Fire & Maneuver. On the defence I would use the bipod, carried by the asst gunner.

Ammo-wise I carried the belt (12 Magazines) and a couple of bandoleers of loose ammo. The asst BAR man carried a bag with a dozen or so spare (loaded) magazines & the bipod. The asst's job was primarily to reload magazines as they were used (he usually had an ammo box with about 200 loose rounds. We never felt that the 20 round magazine was a problem.

You could select the low rate of fire (300/350 RPM), and easily squeeze off single rounds, which made the BAR a good sniper rifle also.

All in all an excellent weapon. But with a full magazine that sucker weighed 21 pounds, 7 oz. a heavy mother, but worth carrying!

[Michael Emrys]

Hi, BARMAN, nice to have you here. Find a comfortable chair and stay a while. Got any good stories?

Michael

[Mr. Tittles]

I saw 'The Sand Pebbles' again the other day. Steve McQueen sure could run with that weapon.

[Kitty]

Originally posted by BARMAN1950:

I went to Korea in July 1950 as a BAR man (Browning Automatic Rifle). Now I can't speak for WW II types, but I can tell you that during the Korean War the BAR was a superb weapon. Later when I became a Squad leader & Platoon Sgt I still carried a BAR. Normally the BAR "team" was the gunner, an asst & the asst Squad leader . Using the BAR as a base of fire it allowed the squad to use the concept of "Fire & Maneuver. On the defence I would use the bipod, carried by the asst gunner.

Ammo-wise I carried the belt (12 Magazines) and a couple of bandoleers of loose ammo. The asst BAR man carried a bag with a dozen or so spare (loaded) magazines & the bipod. The asst's job was primarily to reload magazines as they were used (he usually had an ammo box with about 200 loose rounds. We never felt that the 20 round magazine was a problem.

You could select the low rate of fire (300/350 RPM), and easily squeeze off single rounds, which made the BAR a good sniper rifle also.

All in all an excellent weapon. But with a full magazine that sucker weighed 21 pounds, 7 oz. a heavy mother, but worth carrying!

Glad you're here. How did you find out about this game and why does it interest you? =)

Kitty

[BARMAN1950]

Thanks to Micheal & Kitty for the welcome. I don't really know anything about the protocol for the message board, but here goes.

My son (who lives in Australia) got me turned on to CMBO, I loved it I have CMBB but don't prefer it. I have ordered CMAK should be here in a few days(I hope).

I was in the Army Infantry from 1947 till 1954. I served in Korea for only 9 months, after my 3rd Purple Heart they sent me back to the States. I know quite a bit of Infantry weapons and tactics of late WW II through Korea. As I said in my first post I ended up as a platoon Sgt.

Comments about the M1 Rifle (a great weapon). If you wished you could eject a partial clip, pocket the unused ammo and insert a full (8 round )clip. Worry about filling clips later when things were more calm. The enemy listened for the "k-ching" sound of a clip being ejected after the 8th round, so by doing the above(manually ejecting a partial clip and reloading a full clip) you could fire a few rounds from the new clip then strike a rock with an empty clip, "K-ching", when the enemy came up to fire you could put 3 or 4 rounds into him! This really pissed them off!

The M1 Carbine, a fine weapon for officers, truck drivers, artillery types. I have one in my collection & it works great. My wife loves to shoot it. The M2 Carbine (issued shortly after the war started was also a fine weapon. It had the highest rate of fire of any of our weapons (750 RPM). The 30 round magazine was developed for the M2. The only drawbacks were the effective range of the weapon (100-150 yards) and it "could" use up a lot of ammo if you weren't careful. It could also be fired in the semi-automatic mode. The Airborne troops had the M1A1 which was the M1 with a folding wire stock. The M3 was an M2 with an infared scope (I never saw one in combat).

The Infantry Squad, was downsized from the WW II squad of 12 men in about 1947. In Korea we had 9 man squads. TO&E called for one BAR/squad, By mid summer of 1950 we had (on our own) fitted out squads with at least 2 BAR's. As I said "a great weapon". It was no more hard to carry the BAR than the M1, it was of course heavier, but when the adrinalin flows you could move as fast as a rifleman (faster if you were more scared).

A comment on hand granades. During a move forward (to attack) you might only cary 2 or 3. When you secured a position we would issue a case of granades to a 2 man foxhole for the nights defense. If our position were under attack it was usually the Platoon Sgt & platoon leader who moved from one position to the next keeping the troops supplied with extra ammo, granades & moral support.

Again I appreciate your welcome!

I have not as yet played PBEM. My son & his mates in Australia have been at me to join in, but I feel that I'm not ready, hopefully someday.

[Michael Emrys]

Originally posted by BARMAN1950:

The enemy listened for the "k-ching" sound of a clip being ejected after the 8th round, so by doing the above(manually ejecting a partial clip and reloading a full clip) you could fire a few rounds from the new clip then strike a rock with an empty clip, "K-ching", when the enemy came up to fire you could put 3 or 4 rounds into him! This really pissed them off!

Nasty! I love it!

Michael

[Michael Dorosh]

Originally posted by BARMAN1950:

Later when I became a Squad leader & Platoon Sgt I still carried a BAR.

I'll add my welcome to the others.

I was wondering - did you squad still have a dedicated BAR man in addition to your BAR? Were you able to use the BAR effectively at the same time as issuing direction to your troops? Or was the state of training such that your personal direction was not often needed (?)

A friend of mine is a Canadian Korea veteran (two tours with the Royal Canadian Regiment, who lost a leg and arm during his last day in the country). It's great to see some Korea veterans on the internet and sharing their stories.

I wonder if he would have been in the country during your time there? Which unit were you in?

[Mace]

Originally posted by BARMAN1950:

I have not as yet played PBEM. My son & his mates in Australia have been at me to join in, but I feel that I'm not ready, hopefully someday.

Welcome aboard Barman1950.

Where about down under is your son situated? We can't have enough CM players down here in Oz.

Mace

[BARMAN1950]

Thanks folks for the "welcome aboard". I went to Korea with an outfit from Okinawa, Company B, 29th Infantry Regt in July of 1950. We were not treated well by the Korean Peoples Army. We were all but wiped out in our 1st few battles. The Regt colors went back to Okinawa on Sept 5th of 1950. The men that were left from my Bn on that date formed the 3rd Bn of the 35th Infantry Regt of the 25th (Tropic Lightning) Div. I went from Co. B 29th to Co. K of the 35th.

Yes, my squad continued to have a dedicated BAR Man when I became a squad leader. Having my (extra) BAR helped out a lot particularly on the defense. While hauling ammo ect to the various foxholes I would always spend a few minutes assisting with supporting fire. The guys in the foxhole (2 with M1 rifles) would perk up when I assisted them for a bit with my BAR.

While I was in Korea Canada sent (as their contribution to the "UN Forces") The Princess Pat's Which was an excellent unit They were attached to the 25th Inf Div for only a short time then went elsewhere.

As most of you are aware Korea was primarily an Infantry war. The 1st tanks to arrive for our support were from the 89th Med Tank Bn. Sad to say that they had no medium tanks. They were using the M-24 Chaffee. A good "light" tank, but no match for the T-34/85's that the gooks had. In about Aug of 1950 they were re-equipped with the M4-A3E8. the M4 had the 76mm HI-velocity gun which could take out the T-34's with no problems.

My son who lives in Australia is in a suberb of Melbourne called Fairfield. He may even have an account on this website. I'll ask him & get back to you.

I lived & worked in OZ for 20 years in Alice Springs. I loved it there. I think that the Aussie people are great!

[Mr. Tittles]

Welcome BARMAN.

Please comment on the matter of CMAK having a 2 man BAR support weapon. I mentioned this earlier in the thread. It has a medium speed, same ammo as a squad based weapon, can't assault or advance.

Personally I feel the BAR should stay at the squad level in either 1 BAR or 2 BAR squads.

On another note, can you comment on US 30 cal MGs? Did you use the bipod version of the 30 cal much? Would it overheat?

Heres a link to Korean war weapons

http://www.rt66.com/~korteng/SmallArms/arms.htm#weapons

(Kitty make some s'mores..this could be a ten page thread...)

[Salkin]

Originally posted by Mr. Tittles:

....(Kitty make some s'mores..this could be a ten page thread...)

And it's all MINE !!!

MOAHAHAHAHA (powerhungry laughter)

Oh, and welcome BARMAN !

Your presence is like chocolate ice cream to the grogs.

//Salkin

[Mr. Tittles]

Operation Air cooled, gas operated, magazine fed, shoulder type

M1918A1 selective fire (fully and semi-automatic)

M1918A2 fully automatic

Caliber .30 (30-06)

Muzzle velocity 853.4 mps (2800 fps)

Capacity 20-round detachable box magazine

(1) Bandoleer (BAR belt): 12 magazines

(2) Magazine changeable in 2-4 seconds

(but averaged 6-8 seconds in combat)

Weight 8.33 kg (18.5 lbs)

Overall length 119.4 cm (47 in.)

Rate of fire 550 rounds per minute

I believe the BAR weight here is with bipod and magazine attached.

[BARMAN1950]

Mr Tittles Sir, I can't speak to early WW II, frankly I don't remember the Infantry squad make up for that era. I do know that by 1944 (12 man squads) there was only one BAR (TO&E) per squad. The BAR man was a "squad" asset, and was deployed at the squad leaders whim. Also, in 1942 I don't know that the US Army had enough BAR's to equip as TO&E 2 BAR's per squad.

With respect to the bi-pod/shoulder stock Machine gun (M1919A6). I never saw one in our unit. I did see one in 1949 while I was in the 1st Cav Div (occupation duty in Japan). The general Infantry Platoon make up during the Korean war was 3 Rifle squads & one weapons squad. The weapons squad had a M1919A4 machine gun & a 57mm recoiless rifle. In an Infantry Company you would have 3 Rifle platoons & a weapons platoon. The weapons platoon had 60mm morters & some machine guns (M1919A4). It seems to me that the weapons squad also had the 3.5" Bazooka.

At Bn level it was again 3 Rifle Companies & a Weapons Company, the weapons company had 81mm morters, 1917A1(water cooled) machine guns & 75mm Recoiless rifles.

It must be rembered that the army at that time was using the "triangular" concept. 3 Bn's to a Regt, 3 Regt's to the Division (plus there were 3 Bn's of Arty ,2 with 105's & 0ne with 155's). Along with that there was of course a medical unit, Mp's, signals, Ord, Qm, etc. If the Regt or Div were doing anything special then Corps HQ would assign various other assets (Armor, Arty, etc) to it. The same if a Regt were to become an RCT, then Div might assign Arty, or extra Armor to it.

[BARMAN1950]

This is off topic somewhat, but I am curious. I recently got my account, Member number etc. I am a Jr. Member. No problem. What does one do to become simply a Member?

Thanks, BARMAN1950

[Michael Emrys]

Originally posted by BARMAN1950:

What does one do to become simply a Member?

Post 30 times. You're one-sixth of the way there.

Michael