Redwolf Posted December 7, 2003 Share Posted December 7, 2003 Last time the discussion came up it was said that CMAK has a lower probability for small guns to knock out bunkers/pillboxes to solve the old problem that small guns are more effective against those. I was testing this and find (wooden) bunkers to be fine/fixed but apparently (concrete) pillboxes are still a problem. I am firing from 10 vehicles to 10 pillboxes/bunkers. LOS separation ensures that one vehicle an only target its own pillbox. Scenario at http://66.30.223.8/tmp/arena-20mm.cmg , its has 20mm cars, you can exchange the vehicles easily. 800m, wooden bunkers KOed after 1/2/... turns (out of 10 pillboxes at start). - PSW 222 (20mm autocannon): 4/7 - Pz IV kurz: 4/7 KO - 251/10 (37mm single-shot): 2/3 - StuG IIIG (75mm L/48): 6/8 - Brummbaer: 1/- (too much dust to target after first misses) - Brummbaer: 1/ (mud to prevent dust but doesn't target voluntarily) - Brummbaer: 9/ (manual target and infantry spots for it) - Brummbaer: 5/8 (same, second run) - 150mm FO: 0/2/4/5 (note that first turn sees few rounds, firing on TRP) - 210mm FO: 0/1/3/5 800m concrete pillbox MG KOed after 1/2/... turns (out of 10 pillboxes at start): - StuG IIIG: 4/6/6/9 - 210mm FO: no knockouts in 5 turns - Brummbaer + stuff: 1/3/4/5/5/5/6 - 251/10: 0/3/4/6 - PSW 222: 9 in first turn - PSW 222: 10 (again) - PSW 222: 9 (again) - PSW 222: 10 (again) As you can see, the 20mm autocannon kills concrete pillboxes like flies, although the issue seems to have been fixed for wooden bunkers. Any official word on this? (Note: I am sure the usual suspects come in and tell me that of course WW2 concrete pillboxes were more vulnerable to 20mm fire than wooden ones for whatever fancy reason. Whatever...) [ December 07, 2003, 10:32 AM: Message edited by: redwolf ] 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JasonC Posted December 7, 2003 Share Posted December 7, 2003 I don't think the wooden numbers qualify as "fixed". A 150mm direct fire weapon ought to be killing wooden bunkers much more effectively than a 20mm. You numbers have the 20mm twice as effective as a 37mm and equal to a 75L24. That is still way, way too high. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Redwolf Posted December 7, 2003 Author Share Posted December 7, 2003 My point is I can live with the wooden numbers (although I would prefer different ones). The important fix we need is that a player doesn't have to prefer to move in with small-gun vehicles. If the kill chances for 75mm and 20mm are even then realistic players can still bring in the StuG. This is the case for wooden ones, but not concrete ones. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Monty Posted December 7, 2003 Share Posted December 7, 2003 Originally posted by redwolf: - PSW 222: 9 - PSW 222: 10 (again) - PSW 222: 9 (again) - PSW 222: 10 (again) What does this mean?? 9 shots within one turn or 9 turns ?? Monty 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Redwolf Posted December 7, 2003 Author Share Posted December 7, 2003 The numbers are the number of pillboxes killed in the first turn of firing, out of 10 pillboxes at start. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Redwolf Posted December 8, 2003 Author Share Posted December 8, 2003 Bump. Am I the only one who is concerned that concrete pillboxes now die a lot easier than wooden bunkers (not counting Jason)? Or that the concrete pillbox has a 90% chance to die within a single minute in a firefight with a 20mm armored car (where the wooden bunker survives longer)? Come on, it really looks like somebody fixed the wooden bunker with regards to small autocannon fire but forgot to do the same for concrete pillboxes. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Treeburst155 Posted December 8, 2003 Share Posted December 8, 2003 This looks like a fairly major issue to me. If people play enough scenarios with these fortifications we will get more gripes. This thread may die, but others will probably pop up in time if it is not fixed. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Herr Kruger Posted December 8, 2003 Share Posted December 8, 2003 Originally posted by redwolf: Bump. Am I the only one who is concerned that concrete pillboxes now die a lot easier than wooden bunkers (not counting Jason)? Or that the concrete pillbox has a 90% chance to die within a single minute in a firefight with a 20mm armored car (where the wooden bunker survives longer)? Come on, it really looks like somebody fixed the wooden bunker with regards to small autocannon fire but forgot to do the same for concrete pillboxes. I'm concerned, if you are indeed correct, and hereby put my vote in for having something done about it, if it is considered a major issue by those my groggy than I! J Kruger 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zarquon Posted December 9, 2003 Share Posted December 9, 2003 It might be helpful to know *what* was changed to make the wooden bunkers survive longer than in CMBB. As to my knowledge of the current CM engine, it is probably the silhouette factor of the bunker that was lowered, not penetration or armor values. Unfortunately, although the program treats bunkers like vehicles, it does not tell much about a bunker's attributes. But if it is the silhouette factor, you should see considerably less *hits* on wooden bunkers than on concrete ones. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Redwolf Posted December 9, 2003 Author Share Posted December 9, 2003 Originally posted by Zarquon: It might be helpful to know *what* was changed to make the wooden bunkers survive longer than in CMBB. As to my knowledge of the current CM engine, it is probably the silhouette factor of the bunker that was lowered, not penetration or armor values. That cannot be the reason. Because everybody else (75mm and larger guns) kill them at comparable rates, only the 20mm autocannon kills the concrete one faster. If the silhuette was the difference then the 75mm+ guns would hit more often as well. A possible explanation for the difference would be that the concrete pillbox is assumed to have a bigger firing slit than the wooden bunker. I am not sure a fix has already been applied to CMAK 1.0. Somebody of BFC recently said something was in the pipe but no mention whether this is already in the release or for sometime later. In general, the problem is that the penetrations through the firing slit are as scary to the crew as penetrations into a tank turret. By no means I want to say penetrations to a pillbox are harmless to the inmates, but they are orders of magnitue less dangerous than in a tank turret (reasons: more space, no hydraulics(!), possibly cover inside the pillbox). In CM this is not the case. But the far better question is why the wooden one is toucher to kill for the 20mm than the concrete one, which looks like a coding bug, e.g. a patch as suggested only applied to the wooden one. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Redwolf Posted December 9, 2003 Author Share Posted December 9, 2003 To ease your testing pain I provided savegames. You just load them and press GO. http://66.30.223.8/tmp/arena-20mm-1.cmg http://66.30.223.8/tmp/arena-20mm-wood-1.cmg You will find that the concrete pillboxes (first savegame) die with a rate of about 90% within one minute of fire from a single 20mm scout car. The wooden bunker (second savegame) dies at a rate of about 40%. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Battlefront.com Posted December 16, 2003 Share Posted December 16, 2003 Guys, the test scenarios are flawed. Using the 20mm cannon at 800m as an example: Because of the TRPs placed near the targets, hits are scored at (initially) roughly an 83% rate against wooden bunkers. Hits in the firing slot are somewhere around 12%. Concrete bunkers are much larger, with larger firing slots (even proportionally) and combined with the TRPs placed near the targets, hits are scored against them at roughly a 98% rate even for the very first shot. The targets are considered boresighted (presence of nearby TRP and firer has not moved) and not only are hits virtually guaranteed but the shooting is so cleanly set up in advance that a hit in the firing slot is nearly guaranteed as well. So the 20mm cannon, in this artificial case where it's boresighted against a really large target and within relatively short range, and has an extremely high rate of fire, it's just streaming rapid-fire shells right into the concrete bunkers firing slot from the first second it opens fire, ripping the crews to shreds. The wooden bunkers are enough smaller that - at 800m or so range - the 20mm can't get anywhere near the "guaranteed" hit on the firing slot, even with the boresighting. However, if you start the 20mm cannon up closer then they will attain this, and you'll see the wooden bunkers start to drop like flies too. Charles 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Emrys Posted December 16, 2003 Share Posted December 16, 2003 Ohhhhhhhhhh. This changes everything. Never mind. Hey redwolf, how come you didn't think of this? Michael 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dugfromthearth Posted December 16, 2003 Share Posted December 16, 2003 nice to see science at work. hypothesis. Test. Resuls. all presented including methodology. others can attempt to reproduce results and see if they match and then validate the test. I am so impressed by these boards. You may have no idea what other game boards are like, but death threats would be involved by now. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Emrys Posted December 17, 2003 Share Posted December 17, 2003 Originally posted by dugfromthearth: You may have no idea what other game boards are like, but death threats would be involved by now. I could arrange to have Tony and Louie pay you a visit if it would make you feel more at home. Michael 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Redwolf Posted December 17, 2003 Author Share Posted December 17, 2003 Thanks for the response. The TRP works for vehicles in a ME? I didn't know that. The TRPs are in there for other tests with artillery FOs. Anyway, if the concrete bunker is modeled as much larger and having a larger firing slit then this is the explanation. But it still doesn't sound right that the concrete one does so much faster given that they are armed the same way (MG bunkers and pillboxes). 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sergei Posted December 17, 2003 Share Posted December 17, 2003 Originally posted by redwolf: But it still doesn't sound right that the concrete one does so much faster given that they are armed the same way (MG bunkers and pillboxes). Not exactly, a wooden bunker has one MG, MG bunker has three MG's. Whatever that means regarding this topic. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Emrys Posted December 17, 2003 Share Posted December 17, 2003 Originally posted by redwolf: The TRP works for vehicles in a ME?I suppose if the vehicle hasn't moved. Michael 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Redwolf Posted December 22, 2003 Author Share Posted December 22, 2003 I changed the scenarios as indicated, the TRPs do in fact work in an ME. However, I have to uphold my original complaint. The concrete bunker still dies much faster under fire from a 20mm autocannon fire than the wooden bunker. This just isn't right, why would you bother building a concrete pillbox if that was for real? - with the TRPs moved away 8-10 out of 10 concrete pillboxes are abanonded or knocked out within the first minute of fire. - 0-3 out of 10 wooden bunkers gets abanonded in the first minute of fire with the TRPs out of the picture. The tactical situation is still disturbed. In CMAK the right reaction to meeting a concrete pillbox is to move in the scout cars. I am curious to hear about any historical reference to such a course of action taken in real life. http://66.30.223.8/tmp/arena-20mm.cmg http://66.30.223.8/tmp/arena-20mm-wood.cmg 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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